P.O.W illegaly executed

[Pint]

Ive never heard of the term Jap as being offensive in any way.

there are many companies opperating in the UK that deal with Japanese car parts and importcars ( as the Japanese drive on the left, the same side of the road as the UK) often using the word Jap prominently in their company name ie Japarts Jap World and so on.

[SctDad]

I have to agree that there are many terms that we use today that many think are derogatory, but if someone acutally takes to find out a little bit about the true meaning.

 

EX: While serving in Iraq during the second part of OIF, we were using the term Haji in reference to the Local Nationals. We started using it due to the terms that our predacessors used.

 

Immediatly after they left, our command came down and stated that the term Haji was no longer to be used. Our interpreter that was with us in the medical clinic was surprised, he told us the true meaning.

 

A Haji is a male Homeowner/Businessman/Politician who is successful and well known. So the term was was actually that of a good thing. Guess that is why none of them ever complained.

[Eagle92]

Language is one of those things that the meaning needs to be taken in context, i.e. usage and context in writings; body language, context, and usage when spoken. Also words meaning do change over time. One moderate example is costume, which originally meant mode of dress. Today the word is more affiliated with acting and Halloween.

 

Another example is the word that originally meant a burning ember used to start fires. In the UK it's slang for cigarette, and in the US a discriminatory word for homosexual.

 

[BDPT00]

Eagle92 stated:EDITED: not trying to sound unscoutlike, but trying to show that it is acceptable similar to Aussies for Australians, Kiwis for New Zealanders, Brits for Brtitish and of course Yanks for Americans (although in my part of the woods calling someone a YANK is fighting words)

 

Dictionary.com states:

Aussie: noun (informal) an Australian.

Brit: noun (informal) British person.

Kiwi: noun (informal) New Zealander.

Yanks: short for Yankee. (Not defined as derogatory)

Jap: offensive slang Used as a disparaging term for a person of Japanese birth or descent.

 

I don't really care to get into a battle of words, but I'm simply quoting what I found on my first glance at a dictionary. If this were a WWII movie, "Jap" would be an acceptable word for the enemy. That was 65 years ago, and the war is over. For those with nightmares and memories that won't let go, I'd give them a free pass. But for people of our generation, we should know better. People of my generation called our enemies "Gooks," and many still do. That term, however, is unacceptable for our current Scouts' generation. Do we need to go back a few more years to discuss words for people of different races? The "N-word" isn't even spoken by news media when stating a quote from someone, but 50 and 60 years ago, it was common and acceptable slang among many.

I find "Jap" to be offensive, and I was simply stating so. Sorry if I offended anyone by it.

BDPT00

 

[John-in-KC]

BDPT000,

 

We agree to disagree. My father earned the Bronze Star and Purple Heart in captivity. To this day, he will not buy Japanese auto brands. To this day, his use of the term includes two different seven letter words as adjectives. He's delighted Little Boy and Fat Man were used; he'd not have minded if all Japan had been turned into glass.

 

Other men from his era were my SM, ASMs, Committee Chairs, and so on. They felt this way about their enemies, period. They told their war stories at campfires as we backpacked through the Sierra Nevada.

[BadenP]

SO KC you take on your fathers hatred and pass down to your son to continue the hatred for generations to come, very short sighted on your part. My father was wounded shot down in WWII behind German lines and had to flee the Nazis for 6 months on foot until he made it to Switzerland, he received the purple heart and air medal. Yet after the war was over he moved on with his life and did not carry a hatred for the Germans for the rest of his days. Hatred is like a cancer that festers and grows unless you completely remove it from your life, otherwise you stagnate stuck forever in the past.

[BDPT00]

I hear both of you, John/KC and BadenP. My father won the DFC, and my uncle won 2; both fighting the Japenese. My father let it go. My uncle never did. I understand both of them and both of you.

I would hold nothing against your father for what he says, John, but I agree with what BadenP says regarding later generations. The war is over. I think we hear similar arguments with the Stars and Bars. Some can forget. Others never will, even though it was a century and a half ago. That doesn't do anybody any good.

I try to not use words that would offend people I don't even know. Our current relations with people on the other side of the world don't make that easy, but I try.

BDPT00

[John-in-KC]

When the Government of Japan, over the signature of the Emperor, publicly offers reparations to its WWII prisoners of war, my father will stand down.

 

The die-off of his generation is 85% or more complete, and the above has not happened yet.

 

Compared to what Japan did, what Colonel Robert SS Baden-Powell did is again, "So What, Who Cares?" I for one do not.

[HiLo]

I care. I am fascinated by trying to understand the complex and amazing character that was Baden Powell. He created a fantastic movement for kids. Even if he had never done that he would have been a major figure in British military history. Other recent publications show that he had what would now be seen as a very strange interest in the beauty of naked young males, that probably had nothing to do with homosexuality or pedophilia, but which was also something far less unusual and acceptable in its time.

 

So, I care, but I cannot condemn. I know so little detail that I cannot fairly judge. But it is interesting. Thank you Pint.

[Pint]

If your interested in the history side of Scouting, the BBC made a documentary about a year ago, as a part of BBC4s Rdwardian season, called Ian Hislops Scouting for boys, with interviews and input from the current Lord Baden-powell ( B-Ps grandson ) amongst others, as well as the origins of the patrol system, seige of mafeking, Brownsea island, etc etc, its in six parts on youtube, part one below:

 

[Eagle92]

Pint,

Thanks for the link. Going to try it after work tonite.

[GKlose]

There is an interesting movie based on the trial of 3 Australian officers in the British Army during the Boer Wars in South Africa: Breaker Morant. The lead in the movie, Edward Woodward (a.k.a. The Equalizer) recently passed away. Bryan Brown (F/X, Thorn Birds, etc) played one of the other officers, named Hancock.

 

This is allegedly a famous incident from Australian history, and was one of the few Australian movies of that time period (1980) that made it out to international release. It was directed by Bruce Beresford, who went on to direct Driving Miss Daisy and Tender Mercies. I first saw it in a college film class, and our instructor made a big point of how "young film industries" usually turn inward (to their history) for subject matter.

 

I'm not sure how fictionalized the movie is, but the incident involves the three Australian officers being tried for executing Boer prisoners. The trial is portrayed as being something of a sham (the movie's script and technical aspects go to great length to show the prejudice of the British over the Australians) -- the officers had direct orders from Lord Kitchener to execute prisoners, but in the trial, Lord Kitchener was unavailable to testify and his aide denied the existence of such orders.

 

Guy

[Kahuna]

The movie Breaker Morant was originally a stage play. The script and most of the background was based on the book Scapegoats of the Empire, by George Witton, the third Bushveldt Caribineer officer tried and given a commutation by Kitchener. A reprint of the book is available at Amazon.com.

 

The movie is pretty true to the facts of the case (apart from the fact the "The Breaker" was not quite as likable as Woodward's character), which was well documented at the time. There is, as far as I'm aware, not much argument that the three officers were in fact guilty only of doing what Kitchener wanted, which was to avoid collecting Boer prisoners by shooting them out of hand. The three men were offered up as sacrifices to the "greater good" of getting the Germans to put pressure on the Boers to stop the guerrilla war. It did work, but seems a bit hard on the men involved.

[fgoodwin]

I know we're straying from the topic here, but I wanted to add that I am half-Japanese.

 

I was born there to an American father. My mother was living in Fukuoka (near Nagasaki) when the Americans dropped the 2nd atom bomb. I can't speak for other Japanese, but I personally don't find the terms "Jap" or "Nip" offensive. And I don't forgive them for what they did at Pearl Harbor or to POWs in their care.

 

Similarly, while I don't agree with herding up Japanese-Americans and placing them in "internment" camps, I can understand why President Roosevelt did it.

[SSScout]

And the conversation takes a turn...

 

http://uwnews.org/uweek/article.aspx?id=40044

 

U of Washington awards honorary degrees to Nisei that were interned in WW2 and had to withdraw from the university. Other west coast universities followed suit.

 

http://rafu.com/news/?p=2254