Flags in Church

[Woapalanne]

Interesting comments, Stosh, and appreciated. I agree that one should use the most current code.

 

And, as I thought I was well-informed, but apparently not. I was unaware that a flag on the coffin was proper for a civilian, as well. Thanks for the update. (A different flag will be on my coffin, though.)

 

As for folding the flag in a triangle, the U.S. flag is the only one done that way, by the way. And yes, it is optional, but always proper.

[DeaconLance]

evmori: "Regardless of what people think, there if no "Flag of Christ" only denominational flags. And the Flag Code can and actually does dictate where the American flag should be placed regardless of the venue. And it is a law with penalties. And if you remember correctly, Jesus stated "render to Caesar what is Caesar's". In other words, one should follow the laws of man as well as God's law."

 

I did not say there was a "Flag of Christ". I said some might not want to place a national symbol before a flag bearing the Cross of Christ. The generic Protestant Christian flag is one such flag.

[SSScout]

Here 'tis, Deacon...

 

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf

 

"On the national level the Federal Flag Code provides uniform guidelines for the display of and respect shown to the flag. In addition to the Code, Congress has by statute designated the national anthem and set out the proper conduct during its presentation. The Code is designed for the use of such civilian groups or organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one or more executive departments of the federal government. Thus, the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by

civilians and civilian groups."

 

That said, there are some penalties enacted elsewhere in the US Code for certain ""desecretory acts"". Look'em up seperately.

[evmori]

I did not say there was a "Flag of Christ". I said some might not want to place a national symbol before a flag bearing the Cross of Christ. The generic Protestant Christian flag is one such flag.

 

You are correct. So you are saying the denomination flag should take precedence over the American flag? Interesting.

[Eagle92]

I'm wondering if the Church Pennant will be going up over the National Ensign at the USS YORKTOWN this weekend when services are being conducted, per USN regs.

[Stosh]

Eagle 92,

 

Nope. Just because the service is in accordance to Navy regs, it's still not a military service.

 

I could go through all the motions of leading a Catholic Mass, but that doesn't make it a Catholic Mass. Especially in the fact that I'm not Catholic. The boys on the Yorktown aren't navy personnel and they are not at sea.

 

Stosh

[Eagle92]

Stosh,

 

Understand, oh well. I worked at the USS KIDD, and they went out of the way to make it feel like a WWII ship: bread baking in the galley, 1940s music piped throughout the ship, ships bells every 30 minutes, etc. Heck they even had a 48 star Ensign and Jack. Grant you no uniforms, except the reenactors on special occasions.

[Stosh]

Dont' get me wrong, I think all the hype generated for the boys by reenactors is a great thing.

 

As a CW reenactor, the 36 star flag gets the same respect and honor as the 50 star flag even though it no longer is an official flag of the US. According to the US Flag Code, civilians are not allowed to mark on the US flag, but these flags all have battle honors painted on. We know as reenactors we are a civilian group and not military and thus when asked to lead in a parade, as a color guard we are asked the go to the head of the parade. We do and we're the first unit BEHIND any and all other true military, and veteran groups. I remember once being asked by a American Legion group at a small town parade to take the lead because we looked better than their 4 guys, a couple of guns, and a small flag. No way was our 36 star flag going to go before the veterans with a 50 star flag.

 

However, on occasion as part of the scenario, the flag bearer goes down and the flag is dropped to the ground. Is it an act of defiance to the flag? or is it a dramatic emphasis by the reenactors to portray the dedication and love these men had on the field of battle when the flag was still held by human hands in the face of the enemy.

 

The historic battle flags of the civil war were huge in comparison to the staff from which they flew. If one puts the butt of the staff on the ground, the flag hangs down to about 1' off the ground. It had to be big enough that 1,000 men of the regiment could see it and keep their position relative to it on the battlefield. The pole could not be so big so as to be a burden to the flag bearer.

 

Whereas the flag touches the ground many times during the course of a reenactment, there isn't one reeactor out there that wouldn't go to the mat to honor and respect it, regardless of what some flag code said.

 

If it was me all personnel of the USS Kidd and USS Yorktown should be expected to wear WWII naval uniforms. That way the boys when they get piped aboard it is as if they walk back into history and are immersed into it. Sounds like a great opportunity for your boys.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[DeaconLance]

evmori asks: "So you are saying the denomination flag should take precedence over the American flag? Interesting."

 

I am saying the Cross of Christ, if on a flag, should take precedence over the US flag inside a church. Denominational flags do not necessarily contain the Cross but various heraldric or stylizied crosses so these I would not give precedence.

[evmori]

Interesting take DeaconLance. I disagree. The Flag Code which is a law should be followed the way were are commanded to follow the laws of the land.

[Eagle92]

Stosh,

Love the idea of period uniforms on ship but A) the KIDD, being a warship, only had WAVES on it 1 time, and 2) some of our volunteers and older employees, specificlly our prior and retired military personell have said "#377 NO I aint wearing a uniform again."

 

We were fortunate in that we had a bunch of Tin Can Sailors as volunteers working on the ship. Also one employee who moved back to BR was very pleased to find his ship wasn't razor blades. Whenever he worked the Quarterdeck, he would dispaly some of his personal affects from his time aboard ship. Grant you he served after WWII, but still it was awesome lsitening to his stories.

[sherminator505]

Somehow this strikes me as a particularly American issue. Have any of you international Scouters encountered this question?

[Stosh]

I would think that an issue of the US Flag Code would be a "particularly American issue".

 

On the other hand there is not much the average scout comes in contact with on a different country's procedures.

 

The flying of another nation's flag under the US flag is forbidden under international flag protocols.

 

We did have an exchange scout at our summer camp last summer from Indonesia. The flags of the US and Indonesia were flown on two separate, equal height poles. I did notice that when the flags came down, the US flag was folded in the traditional triangle, but the Indonesian flag was folded differently, but the same way different every time. I'm sure this was the protocol for folding an Indonesian flag.

 

1) fold the flag lengthwise (same as for the US flag.

2) fold it again lengthwise (same as for the US flag, but one didn't have to worry about the union being on the outside.

3) Turn the flag so it is now vertical rather than horizontal.

4) Hold the end with one hand at the end and then with the other hand about 1' up the flag, fold and zig-zag back and forth until you get to the other end. Then the person holding the other end holds his arms out and the flag is draped over both forearms.

 

It was very precise and purposeful and the process was repeated the same whether it was the Indonesian scout or camp staff doing the retirement.

 

I'm sure there is national protocol for every country and none of them exactly alike.

 

I'm thinking the International flag code would pertain to how to fly your national flag relative to other national flags, i.e. at sea, UN building, etc. but would have very little to concern itself with how to fly a flag in a place of worship. I'm thinking that would probably fall into that country's national flag code.

 

Stosh

[VigilEagle04]

When I was young and the church going type, we had no flags in church, at all. I was raised Church of the Brethren, and things like that are quite verbotten.

 

As far as if it is there and the display of it, the Flag Code is a set of guidelines. While they are laws, they are not enforceable according to the Supreme Court as doing so would violate the freedom of speech in most cases. Therefore, any laws related to the display of, or what is done to the flag, are not enforced. If they were, anyone wearing a t-shirt with an American flag on it would be in trouble.

[Stosh]

Hardly a day goes by that I don't see multiple examples of improper flag protocol. If I were a full-time flag police, I could probably put a pretty good dent in the national debt with what I see just in my town.

 

Stosh