Flags in Church

[evmori]

Based on this definition of upright

 

In a fixed position. Not horizontal, not flown from a pole.

 

this

 

The union is to the left only when the flag is displayed flat upright.

 

would be correct from the observers point of view.

[Woapalanne]

"The union is to the left only when the flag is displayed flat upright.

 

would be correct from the observers point of view."

 

Correct. But applies to the flag, or A flag, not an embroidered patch representing the flag, which is worn with the union to the wearer's front, giving the same orientation as if the person were carrying a flag. ie: The patch is not "backwards" on the uniform.

 

[Stosh]

"Correct. But applies to the flag, or A flag, not an embroidered patch representing the flag, which is worn with the union to the wearer's front, giving the same orientation as if the person were carrying a flag. ie: The patch is not "backwards" on the uniform."

 

"5. Display and use of flag by civilians; codification of rules and customs; definition

 

The following codification of existing rules and customs pertaining to the display and use of the flag of the United States of America be, and it is hereby, established for the use of such civilians or civilian groups or organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one or more executive departments of the Government of the United States. The flag of the United States for the purpose of this chapter shall be defined according to title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1, Section 1 and Section 2 and Executive Order 10834 issued pursuant thereto." (US Flag Code)

 

"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart." (US Flag Code)

 

No where in the Code does it say it is appropriate for civilians to fly the flag as a flag patch in a manner of the direction of the person's walk. It is displayed with union in the upper left corner. Non-civilian organizations such as the US military branches adhere to such regulations as codified by Army Regulation 840-10, Navy Flag Regulations Navy NTP-13B, etc. Those Regulations may and can be different than those expected of the civilian population.

 

Boy Scouts is a civilian organization and adheres to the civilian code.

 

Stosh

[Woapalanne]

Actually, nowhere in the code does it say which direction the Union is when it is worn as a patch on approved civilian uniforms. Union forward is simply the logical direction. Anything else on the right sleeve is awkward. And awkward is disrespectful, imo.

[evmori]

Well awkward is just awkward.

[Woapalanne]

Scouts are wearing the flag in the same manner as the U. S. military. Here are the particulars:

 

"The full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is worn so that the star field faces forward, or to the flags own right. When worn in this manner, the flag is facing to the observers right, and gives the effect of the flag flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward. "

 

Nuff sed.

[sherminator505]

Actually, I believe we (Scouts and Scouters) are wearing it in reverse, if that standard is applied.

[sherminator505]

The dreaded double post strikes again...(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[Woapalanne]

Sherminator, you are correct. I just went upstairs and looked at my uniforms. We are wearing it backwards. >hang head in embarassment

[Stosh]

The BSA flag is not backwards. It is actually displaying itself correctly to the viewer and shouldn't make any difference which way someone is walking. Is it supposed to hang down when the person stands still? Wearing it "flying backwards" is a military designation, not appropriate for civilian protocol.

 

If someone is so dang-fired set on making sure the artificially fly's to the rear of the wearer, why not just put it on the left sleeve! After all it's closer to the heart that way!

 

For all those who's undies are in a major knot/bundle, just remove it, it's not a required part of the uniform, or move it, it used to be worn over the right pocket, and maybe you'll get a better night's sleep.

 

Stosh

[evmori]

Stosh,

 

Bingo! You win the Kewpie doll!

[Eagle92]

Actually only CS wore it above the right pocket, including Webelos in the BS uniform. Sometime after 1985 did the uniforms come with flag sewn on, and all on the right sleeve. I remember having to cut off the flag, and all my CS patches, and resewing the flag to the right sleeve when I crossed over.

 

Don't remember if CS leaders wore it in the same position or not.

[Woapalanne]

Nobody's "undies are in a knot". It's just an interesting discussion. You can actually buy U. S. flags turned the other way if you want to replace, but I find them only with gold edges, not blue. Doesn't matter. I'm not going to change all my uniforms. They are correct to BSA protocol, so that's good enough, even if they do look awkward to my eyes.

 

Interestingly, I was at a National event this summer (not BSA) where a dozen American historical flags were arrayed around the room. 10 of them were backwards (but not the Stars and Stripes).

[Stosh]

I realize it's just a discussion, but there are those that seem to think that the US Flag Code specifically states something when in fact it does not. I made the mistake of using an older version of the Code that was outdated and after checking it out, those references have been removed. However the tradition lives on.

 

There are a lot of things that pertain to what the Code actually says and what people think it says. I don't mind people adhering to older versions of the Code because they are still trying to remain respectful, yet some of the older versions have passages that would today seem disrespectful, such as a man removing his hat in bad weather and simply holding it above their head, or standing there at attention without putting his hand over his heart. At one time this was the instruction in years past. It was also instructed in the original Code that when saying the Pledge to start out with your hand over your heart, but when you say "...to the Flag", you were to extend that hand towards the flag with the palm up. Well, after seeing the Nazi salute do something quite similar, but with palm down, that "tradition" quickly went by the wayside.

 

It's also a problem when one watches the military protocols thinking they are civilian protocols. They aren't. The military process of folding the flag in a triangle is NOT prescribed by the US Flag Code, but it does look nice and there's nothing wrong if people think this is a good idea. It's just not proper to announce that this is what the Code says, because it doesn't.

 

I still see people fly their heritage flags under the US flag. Flying the national flag of Norway, or Canada is not proper under the US flag and that is International Flag Code, but it is reflected in the US Flag Code.

 

Another "tradition" that is often misquoted is that the US Flag draped on a coffin is only for military. It is part of the civilian US Flag Code and is proper for any US citizen to have the flag palled over their coffin.

 

The list goes on and on and makes for interesting discussion on this forum. I just try (and was corrected earlier in this post) to use the appropriate current information from the Code.

 

When teaching the boys, I always make every attempt to do what is proper and respectful.

 

Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

I just want to "second" the idea that we are not wearing the flag "backwards", nor is the military wearing the flag "backwards." We are each wearing it in the manner prescribed by our organization, whether it be the BSA or the military.

 

I used to think that the BSA uniform "always" came with the flag sown on, until I read a thread about it in this forum that said that is something of fairly recent vintage. At my next opportunity, I checked the uniform I wore as a youth (vintage 1973-ish, no collar, "Scout BSA" strip over the pocket without the "Boy") -- and found there was no flag patch at all. (Well, it has one of the bicentennial patches which has a flag on it, but that's a temporary patch that I chose to put on because of the bicentennial.)(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)