Flags in Church

[Stosh]

One must remember that the federal government adheres to the US Constitution and cannot establish itself in any religious matters. However, no where does it state that the individual states under their own constitutions are forbidden to. Interpretation, reinterpretation and further interpretations which are the problem, not the Constitution. A glaring breech of Constitution law occurred when the Territory of Utah applied for statehood and was told it had to reject it's religious principle of polygamy before it would be allowed statehood. Such a mandate is establishing religious tenets for a state. At the present time this religious freedom only seems to apply when convenient. This is what the Founding Fathers were trying to avoid in the first place. Unfortunately it didn't really stick.

 

As far as a flag in church? It has three proper locations acceptable.

 

The US flag can properly be displayed on the right of the congregation when it is down on the floor of the sanctuary. Located on the congregation's right, displaying itself towards the altar area.

 

If the flag is up on the riser area of the altar area, it is displayed on the right of the speaker/clergy. The flag is now presenting itself back towards the congregation.

 

If the flag is within the the railing of the altar area, if it is present, the religious flag is on the right of the officiant/clergy, not the US flag, it is on the left.

 

The only other exception is for military purposes when the religious flag is flown ABOVE the US flag aboard naval vessels during the worship service.

 

Most churches do fairly well with these guidelines, but not all.

 

Stosh, MDiv

[Woapalanne]

Eagle92, you are correct. And the Constitution did not prohibit that, until the passage of the 14th Amendment, which extended the prohibitions on Congress to the State governments. The states that had state religions basically eliminated them of their own accord, not because of any Constitutional prohibition at that time, because there wasn't.

 

What I was referring to (about the second half of the religion clause) was the common prohibitions on worship today, ranging from Blue Laws to the ACLU's attacks on individual prayer (if one happens to hold public office, or be in a stadium).

[NJCubScouter]

Do people really want to discuss "flags in church" again, or was this thread re-started because one person thought the rest of us might have forgotten about the Free Exercise Clause? Either way, it's fine, people can talk about whatever they choose, I was just wondering.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Woapalanne writes:

What I was referring to (about the second half of the religion clause) was the common prohibitions on worship today, ranging from Blue Laws to the ACLU's attacks on individual prayer (if one happens to hold public office, or be in a stadium).

 

"Blue laws" don't prohibit worship, those are laws that are designed to enforce religious behavior, such as laws making it illegal to sell liquor on Sundays.

 

The ACLU doesn't attack individual prayer (and in any case, the ACLU doesn't decide the law, judges do that); the ACLU is against official prayers.

 

Do you have any examples that are actionable? If someone's first amendment rights are really being denied or ignored, then there will be some basis to file a lawsuit against the guilty party. But it doesn't look like you have any genuine examples, just the usual vague anti-ACLU boilerplate.

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

Stosh, this statement has me a bit confused:

 

"If the flag is within the the railing of the altar area, if it is present, the religious flag is on the right of the officiant/clergy, not the US flag, it is on the left."

 

So if the flag is within the railing, and at floor level (i.e. not on a raised platform) then it should be to the officiant's left, the congregation's right? My reading of the U.S. Flag code says it is always on the speaker or Clergy's right when the flag is in front of the audience or congregation. Can you direct me to a source for your statement?

 

This came up in the context of an Eagle COH recently and I really would like to have the correct answer.

 

Regards,

DWS

[Scoutfish]

Our Co is methodist. We have a Us flag and either the Methodist flag or Christian. I honestly do not know as I have never actualluy seen it unfurled.WEll, even more honestly, I would recognize the difference.

 

So, the flag is on our left as we face the altar. It is not within the railing of the altar area, but is on a raised area just outside of it.

 

So when we let the various dens act as color guard, or biggest challenge ( which isn't much of a challenge) is to have them march in with theflag on the right of the procession, but cross over to the left side for salute and the Pledge of Allegiance.

[skeptic]

When a "church flag" is displayed, it takes the position of precedence, since it stands for God. Most of the time, the church flag, if it is there, is on a higher level than the American flag, so it is not an issue.

[BDPT00]

It's an issue with me. I think you just made that up, so I guess I'm the skeptic.

BDPT00

[skeptic]

Paragraph below referring to Military use, Navy. Flag code.

 

175. Position and manner of display

 

 

c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy.

 

Another reference:

A conference of "mainstream" Protestant denominations some decades ago concluded that the Christian Flag, if displayed, should take precedence in a church over the national flag. Actual practice varies between individual parishes/congregations. The Catholic church my wife and children belong to has the US and Holy See flags in the seating area of the church, with the Holy See flag on the right (US flag code says under that arrangement, the US flag should be on the right). The Presbyterian church to which I belong has the US and Christian flags right at the base of the raised area on which the minister conducts the service. Again, the Christian Flag is on the right, the reverse of the US flag code arrangement. But the nearby colonial-era Episcopal church has the US and Episcopal flags hanging on the wall above the pulpit, with the US flag to its own right, as the Flag Code calls for.

Joe McMillan, 15 April 2003

 

In my own Methodist church; there is a similar placement of the Christian flag in a superior position.

 

Surely the flag code can be interpreted to include the Christian flag to have similar meaning as a pennant on the ship.

[evmori]

the ACLU is against official prayers.

 

Then why aren't they going after the federally employed chaplains? Why don't they put a stop to Presidents being sworn in with their hand on the Bible?

 

jblake47,

 

Where are you getting your info regarding flags in church?

[Woapalanne]

""Blue laws" don't prohibit worship, those are laws that are designed to enforce religious behavior, such as laws making it illegal to sell liquor on Sundays."

 

That's right, they enforce ONE religious behavior, at the expense of others. Forcing Jewish owned stores, for example, to close on other than the Sabbath, thereby limiting their operating hours to 5 days when others can be open for six. They also discriminate against non-religious, by limiting their actions to conform with one particular religion. They definitely discourage worship in other than the officially approved form. I am amazed that they still stand.

 

"The ACLU doesn't attack individual prayer...... " Sure they do. They recently forced councilmen in a nearby county to NOT go into a private, closed room to pray, under threat of a Federal lawsuit. Yes, the judges make the rulings, I didn't say they don't. But the ACLU has been strongly against any religious practice, ignoring (or opposing) the second half of the clause I mentioned above.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Woapalanne writes:

That's right, they enforce ONE religious behavior, at the expense of others.

 

Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, I agree.

 

Forcing Jewish owned stores, for example, to close on other than the Sabbath, thereby limiting their operating hours to 5 days when others can be open for six. They also discriminate against non-religious, by limiting their actions to conform with one particular religion. They definitely discourage worship in other than the officially approved form. I am amazed that they still stand.

 

Well, the ACLU and others tried to get rid of a lot of them back around the 1960s, but courts would accept pretty thin justifications that the laws were "neutral," even though they obviously weren't. I'm available to break Sunday liquor laws if you need someone.

 

"The ACLU doesn't attack individual prayer...... " Sure they do. They recently forced councilmen in a nearby county to NOT go into a private, closed room to pray, under threat of a Federal lawsuit.

 

Where's this?

 

Yes, the judges make the rulings, I didn't say they don't. But the ACLU has been strongly against any religious practice, ignoring (or opposing) the second half of the clause I mentioned above.

 

See aclufightsforchristians.com contradicting your "against any religious practice" claim.

 

[sherminator505]

""The ACLU doesn't attack individual prayer...... " Sure they do. They recently forced councilmen in a nearby county to NOT go into a private, closed room to pray, under threat of a Federal lawsuit."

 

Just looking at the circumstances, I'd say that the threat of a lawsuit probably had more to do with violating an open meetings law than what they were doing in that closed room, be it praying, making a back-room deal or some form of debauchery or whatever else you could think of. Honestly, the ACLU has an agenda, but it is not so much against religion but the abuses that can be committed in its name.

 

But isn't this thread about that. It's about having the American flag in a place of worship. I'm fairly neutral on this one, as I have been in places of worship where the Flag was present and where it was absent, and truly, I didn't notice any difference in the way we prayed or sang or worshipped God one way or the other.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[SSScout]

If something is a distraction to one's proper worship, then that distraction should be eliminated. I would say that a flag, of whatever hue or symbology, if it is a distraction to one's obeisance, then eliminate it. To whom is your ultimate loyalty owed?

If a particular church/temple requires a flag to be part of their rites, so be it. If the rite or ritual speaks to you in your worship, then you are in the proper place for your condition. But if you are more concerned with the placement of a flag over the discernment of God's will in your life, I would ask you to reconsider your priorities.

[skeptic]

Ed; If you are asking about the flag info and church, I showed the U.S. Flag Code reference in the post. The other was from a general discussion on a Googled site.