Afghanistan: "Cut and Run"

[le Voyageur]

Pack...

 

The pretext for the Afghan war to avenge 9/11 was to eliminate the Taliban, and capture Osama Bin Laden. Even with the world's best military, that has failed, and the direction of this war has takened a different bent and a life of it's own.

Instead of this, and the Iraqi war, the better choice would of been a global shadow war working in alliances with other nations revamping the Viet Nam era Igloo White, and Red Watch/Phoenix programs with today's technologies, and providing operatives with diplomatic standing to hunt down terrorists. Had this been done we would not be eight years later bogged down with this Bush/Cheney tar baby in which over 100 000 souls, who were not responsible for 9/11, were snuffed out to avenge the death of 3000 plus! My question for all hawks, and war mongers is this.... just how many more deaths, and how many more years of warring will it take to wipe the 9/11 slate clean, and even the score for you?

 

(This message has been edited by le Voyageur)

[NJCubScouter]

LeVoyageur, you talk about a "pretext" for the war in Afghanistan. That word implies that there was a different reason, which is the "real" reason. What do you think that was? I'm not talking about Iraq, where there definitely were a variety of reasons, some pretextual and some real. What was our secret agenda in Afghanistan?

 

Also I don't think throwing around words like hawks and warmongers really contributes to a discussion. Clearly those kinds of people exist in politics and there are probably some in this forum. But based upon my reading of his writings over most of the past 7+ years, I sincerely doubt that Packsaddle is among them. I am sort of a moderate "peacenik" myself. I don't think we should have ever gotten into Iraq (this time, not the Kuwait time), for reasons that are still hanging around in the archives of this forum somewhere, from when I wrote them more than 6 years ago. But Afghanistan? I don't know what else we were supposed to do when we were attacked like that. And I think we could have had a much better shot at achieving our goals there, and then gotten out so we wouldn't even be having this discussion now, if the Previous Administration had kept its eye on the ball and not gotten the military sidetracked elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

[BadenP]

le Voyageur

 

I think you missed the point of packs and others statements, this is not about comparing us to the Soviets on a morality basis its about military tactics. Both the Soviet experience and our own in Afganistan proves that a traditional ground force incursion does not and can not succeed due to the mountanous cavern filled terrain and the willingness to die for their cause by the terrorists. Neither President Bush or Obama seem to understand that, so short of blowing that country out of exsistence there really is no way to win in Afganistan. Sending in more troops will literally be sending lambs to the slaughter. The Afgan rebels can just wait us out for years as they have already, when we have finally had enough losses in life and capital we will pull out and the rebels can regain their positions of power.

[packsaddle]

le Voyageur, I can agree with almost all of what you last wrote, although I think the world's best military never was allowed the chance to open up on them. I think it was hamstrung by many of the factors you've mentioned already, and probably cost countless more lives than needed. I am not a warmonger or a hawk although I probably have 'sounded' like one recently. I am simply terribly frustrated over the same things you and others have described about the Bush era. I would be greatly pleased to see Bin Laden's head on a stake, along with the leadership of the Taliban. I would rather not expend a single life or dollar getting that result. And it is because of the Soviet experience (not to mention ours in VietNam) that makes me willing to accept any approach that can produce those heads on stakes.

But I will not compromise on that goal. I get the sense that some of us would rather withdraw and forget about it - and that is the most dangerous thing that we could do. Bin Laden and his people will not go away and they are going to hit us again and again until we destroy him, his nest of vermin, and anyone who stands in the way. If we can do this with drones and covert actions, so much the better. If we decide to light up the sky, I'll be fine with that too as long as it accomplishes the mission. But we will fail in the most profound way if we just give it up. It's not an option for me.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[le Voyageur]

First, I understand your frustration Pack. The reason is that you, and nearly every American is being lied to about this war. That's my frustration, as this war, and the reason for it, is more complex then many are aware of. However, If I may digress, let me state that I used the term "pretext" correctly. The best way to understand this mess is to head down the rabbit hole....ready or not, here we go....

 

1. The 9/11 attacks were planned in Germany,and Spain and conducted mainly by US-based Saudis to punish America for supporting Israel's repression of the Palestinians. The 9/11 attacks were planned in apartments, not camps in Afghanistan.

 

2. Pakistani intelligence sources knew that the CIA was planning to use Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida to stir up Muslim Uighurs against Chinese rule, and to employ the Taliban against Russia's Central Asian allies. Most of the so-called "terrorist training camps" in Afghanistan were being run by Pakistani intelligence to prepare mujahidin fighters for combat in Indian-held Kashmir.

 

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/war-terrorism/53447-pakistani-army-ran-muslim-extremist-training-camps-says-anti-terrorist-expert.html

 

http://nafeez.blogspot.com/2009/01/norwegian-daily-terrorists-working-for.html

 

http://www.zimbio.com/Grassroots+Organizing+and+Activism+in+China/articles/V1eFvuKSFUe/CIA+RAW+create+Uighur+riots+China

 

http://story.irishsun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/45d771c7290844e9/id/552160/cs/1/

 

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KH28Ad01.html

 

http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Afghanistan/afghanistan.html

 

http://islamicterrorism.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/muslim-uighurs-riot-in-china-156-dead-800-injured/

 

http://www.nps.edu/academics/sigs/ccc/conferences/recent/may02Kargil_rpt.html

 

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers3%5Cpaper236.html

 

http://www.uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=20612

 

http://www.islamawareness.net/Asia/China/cn_article002.html

 

http://www.town9.com/indian-army-general-runs-terrorist-camps(This message has been edited by le Voyageur)

[packsaddle]

le Voyageur, thanks for those astonishing links. I far prefer the world of science where lies are usually found and rejected and most of the time, I can trust the people with whom I work. I'm sorry for those of you whose world is so different. While I can't decide which of us is in a world of illusion, I prefer mine by far. At the same time I fear your version may be correct.

And I miss Eisenhower.

[GernBlansten]

Well Pack,

You could always try a career in theology if that satisfies your need for undisputed truth.

[packsaddle]

Such venom! tsk, tsk.

[Beavah]

Well, it's no cut and run.

 

Another 30-40,000 of our young people are goin' to be rapid-deployed in the new year to Afghanistan. Former scouts and scouters; fellow citizens.

 

Some I expect will be gettin' their orders over the holidays.

 

I wish I were optimistic, but I don't think anything short of a deployment of 500,000 includin' da entire Corps of Engineers and a nation-building effort that would bankrupt us would come to close to makin' Afghanistan stable. And even then, da remote corners could still hide our enemies.

 

I see that da politicos who are always so eager to stay and fight are doin' their best to avoid funding the war or supporting the troops with even a penny of a supplemental war tax. No surprise there. Wars are meant to be fought with both our children's bodies and their financial future.

 

I hope I'm wrong, eh? I hope our military leaders are brilliant. I pray our sons and daughters are resolute at winning battles as well as hearts. I wish that da perpetual culture of tribal favoritism and corruption that plagues that whole area of the world will suddenly dissolve into scoutly service to others. And I hope our vicious, backward enemies are obliterated.

 

Above all, I pray they all come home safe and sound, and to a life and family that has persevered for them in their absence. I know that da answer to that prayer will be "No", at least in part.

 

If yeh can, do somethin' for the family of a serviceman or three in da months and year ahead. I will be. If our "leaders" don't have da courage of their convictions, we ordinary citizens can at least have the character to tax ourselves.

 

Eternal Father, lord of love

We seek your blessing from above

We thank you for the time we've shared

And pause to show our hope and care

For those deployed for whom we pray

Will know your peace while underway

 

Beavah