evmori Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I look at it more like freedom to blaspheme = progress. = 1st Amendment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 "I don't reckon Feynman is competent to comment on religion or religiosity." OK, what qualifies anyone as not competent to comment on religion or religiosity? What, in your opinion, are the qualifications necessary to be able to comment? Personally, I'd say Feynman is as qualified as anyone, considering the subject and considering the depth of qualifications I see for many 'religious' people who comment. And why can't anyone else comment on religion and religiosity? Seems like this ought to be open to anyone. I have no idea what Feynman's teaching style was but I agree with you, if he did those things in that manner he wasn't doing a very good job. However, as I understand it he employed humor a lot. And if a student entered his classroom with notions of the subject matter that were incorrect, it was incumbent on Feynman to relieve that student of his illusions and teach him how to analyze ideas in a manner that allows him to reject those not supported by observations. And to show the student the development of the ideas composing the current understanding of the field, tools from which the student can begin to question other ideas. If successful, Feynman was justified in feeling good about what he had done. IMO. Or is the teacher supposed NOT to enjoy what they do? Edited part: Oops, almost forgot...can anyone give me a serious explanation for the difference between miracles and magic? Evidently Beavah is not up to it.(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I don't see any reason to think that anyone is more 'expert' than anyone else when it comes to... Ah, the rallying cry of the ignorant everywhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 Beavah, absolutely nobody has a leg up on what god or gods exist, or the slightest bit of information about them, contrary to your ridiculous implication. But there are plenty of ignorant people who are ready to tell you exactly what their god thinks and wants, even if that contradicts what other ignorant people say their god thinks and wants. And they're all "experts" on gods. But it's humans all the way down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Yep, like I said. That was my biggest problem with da last administration. Not only did they betray a lot of conservative principles, they almost uniformly discounted expertise. Lawyers must know as much about science as da scientists. Believers must know as much about settin' up Iraqi economic institutions as financial professionals. Fact is, there really are experts in each discipline, eh? Feynman I reckon is an expert on science. Worth quoting him on science. But he's not an expert in other fields, so it's not worth quotin' him on other topics, except as a form of humor. And yep, there are poor lawyers, and not-so-bright economists, and ignorant preachers, and bumbling physicians. That doesn't change da fact that there are true experts in law, and economics, and theology, and medicine, (and plumbing, and every area of human inquiry and endeavor). Only da ignorant claim that because they once had a poor doctor they now never see a physician. You're that guy. Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 Beavah, there are ZERO experts on gods. There are lots of pretenders that claim they're experts, but unlike EVERY OTHER FIELD OF EXPERTISE, they don't agree on ANYTHING. You never see this in any other field, because other fields actually need to get things done. It's impossible to be ignorant about a "field" that has no data of any kind. Oh, by the way Beavah, if there are "experts" in theology, name something these experts agree on regarding gods (note that I am not referring to religions, I'm referring to gods). Experts in other fields actually get to a point where they agree on things, so what do theologians agree on? They can't even agree on how many gods exist.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Yah, like I said. Yeh think economists all agree on everything (or anything)? Physicians? Yeh really are pretty young. Especially when yeh think lawyers or professors actually get things done. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 Yeh think economists all agree on everything Of course not, but that isn't what I said, if you bothered to read what I wrote. (or anything) Yes, actually, they DO agree on some things. Physicians? They certainly agree on lots of things. For example, all of them agree that the heart pumps blood through the circulatory system. Because medicine is a REAL FIELD OF EXPERTISE. People investigate things, and they COME TO AN AGREEMENT ON HOW THINGS REALLY WORK. They BUILD ON EARLIER KNOWLEDGE. There is NOTHING like this in "theology." There is no agreement on ANYTHING. There is NEVER ANY PROGRESS. Yeh really are pretty young. Especially when yeh think lawyers or professors actually get things done. I'm 52, and you continue to dodge the question. What do "experts" on "gods" agree on? Nothing. There is no field of expertise where gods are concerned. There is no built-upon body of knowledge. To borrow a phrase from Gertrude Stein, there is no there there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Funny. I thought most Islam, Hebraic and Christian scholars agreed on this simple statement: Genesis 1:1-5 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morningthe first day. I've read Torah in synagogues where I take Scouts to observe Shabbat services as part of God and Church. I have access to multiple translations of the OT/NT Bible (many online). I've talked about Genesis with some Muslims who I had the chance to know in the Army. We differ. We're human. We err. We did that to ourselves. The consequence is confusion about theology through all time. Oh, well. God's peace be with you, even if you refuse to accept and see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 there are ZERO experts on gods. There are lots of pretenders that claim they're experts, but unlike EVERY OTHER FIELD OF EXPERTISE, they don't agree on ANYTHING. So all doctors agree on everything? So do all lawyers? As well as CPA's? And what about scientists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 So, what causes cancer? What is the best treatment for cancer? What was the nature of the creation of the universe? How do biological cells hve the capicity to "remember" images, sounds, and tastes from the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 John-in-KC, you're stacking the deck by ignoring all the Hindu, Wiccan, Shinto, Buddhist, etc theologians. It's easy to find a subset that agrees on anything, because you can just select that subset using it. However, in a real field of knowledge like medicine, EVERYONE agrees that the human heart pumps blood. It doesn't matter if they're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan, Shinto, Buddhist, or atheist. But theologians? Nope. They can't even agree on how many gods exist. You can cherry-pick a subset that agrees, and I can cherry-pick another subset that says there are millions of gods. And they're all "experts." So all doctors agree on everything? No Ed, I already explained that, but I see you can't understand. Doctors do NOT agree on EVERYTHING. They DO agree on SOME THINGS. Like whether the human heart pumps blood. If you find one that doesn't agree with that statement, I suggest you do not use his or her services. So, what causes cancer? We don't know, OGE, that's still being investigated. It's the cutting edge of medical knowledge. But notice there's no debate on whether the human heart pumps blood or is the source of bodily humors or is the source of human emotion. We've figured that much out. It's known and settled, even though it wasn't known at one time. That's how a field of expertise expands on what it knows. Now, find one factoid in the field of theology that has complete agreement like "the heart pumps blood" does in medicine. There ISN'T one, because theology is basically people making up whatever they imagine. There is no way to check who is right, so there is NEVER any agreement or advancement. Let me demonstrate a bit more. The earth is round. This was disputed long ago, but it isn't now. Find any similar "fact" in theology that is not disputed by literally millions of people. There are millions of monotheists and millions of polytheists and millions of atheists. None of these groups even agree on how many gods EXIST, much less on what properties they may possess. REAL fields of expertise have a few FACTS associated with them. That's how you get to be an expert in that field, you learn lots of facts and lots of theories on how things work in that field. But there's NOTHING like that in theology. There's no single fact to even start building on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 So all doctors agree on everything? No Ed, I already explained that, but I see you can't understand. Doctors do NOT agree on EVERYTHING. Ah but they are EXPERTS in their field, aren't they! And based on your logic, they should agree on EVERYTHING if they are EXPERTS in their field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 No Ed, you aren't using my logic. You can't understand. I already explained twice now. Doctors do NOT agree on EVERYTHING. They DO agree on SOME THINGS. Theologians do not agree on ANYTHING. They can't even agree about any one single fact in their supposed "field of expertise," because it's all bunk. It's just people making up stuff, with no way to check if any particular statement is correct or not. They have zero facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Yah, Merlyn, like any uninformed outsider to a discipline, yeh don't know what da questions are that count, and form your judgments based on superficial things. That's bein' intellectually young. It's what some of our young scouts and venturers do, eh? They're very quick to point out any seemin' superficial hypocrisy in others (especially adults, LOL). At the same time, they're overly credulous of themselves and their own level of understandin' and expertise. Happily, they learn and grow up. Scoutin' helps a lot with that. So do those many religions which you missed, which all have various versions of "first remove the log from your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the mote from your brother's". I also reckon you're not bein' totally fair about medicine, eh? Here in da U.S., we have scientific medicine, we've got herbal medicine, we've got traditional Native American medicine, we've got imported acupuncture, and on and on. If you're goin' to compare medicine to da full panoply of things people call religions, it's only fair to use da full panoply of things people call "medicine." Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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