Happy Blasphemy Day

[packsaddle]

AZMike, Merlyn is not a member of BSA so I'm not sure how he could answer your challenge. But that question has been discussed at length in these forums before. You might as well aim the challenge at BSA itself because they seem to 'wink' at Buddhist (for example) memberships. I can't remember if or how a Buddhist responded in the past though.

 

I'd still like to hear your answer to the question I asked a while back.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah writes:

I wonder how many burned heretics yeh can find in history, eh? A few hundred, perhaps?

 

Plenty enough to show that religions don't like being criticized. Thanks for making my case.

 

That pales in comparison to da executions of religious folks by secular or atheist governments, eh? Even just within da last century.

 

The large number of people executed by Texas or any other nonreligious government is irrelevant to my point that religions don't like being criticized.

 

 

AZMike writes:

"Lately," of course, things have changed. And I've seen lots of Christians whine when they lose their special privileges."

 

I think most people "whine," or complain, to use a less value-laden term, when their rights are taken from them.

 

What's that got to do with my statement about losing special privileges?

 

"Sure doesn't sound like religions are used to being criticized."

 

Gosh, I guess they were never martyred by the pagan Romans, murdered by the millions in Dachau and Auschwitz, murdered by the millions in Soviet Russia, murdered by the millions in Mao's China, murdered by the atheist government of Calles, murdered by the atheist government of Hoxha, murdered by the French Revolutionary Tribunals, etc., etc., etc.

 

Still irrelevant to my point that religions aren't used to being criticized.

 

Here's a hint: you can't excuse crimes by a group by pointing to crimes committed against that group. There are plenty of examples of religious groups violently suppressing dissent, and laundry lists of people violently suppressing THEM doesn't erase or excuse that.

 

Ireland does not have an official state religion, by the way, so a blasphemy law in Ireland is not a religious act, it's a civil one by the elected representatives of a republic.

 

Blasphemy laws are inherently a religious act, since you need to set a religious standard for prosecution.

 

What do you think of the harsh laws against Christian free speech enforced by Canada's "Human Rights Council", or the German laws against home schooling by the religious?

 

I'm against them. What do you think about US states that say atheists can't hold public office, or Indonesia imprisoning people for stating they're atheists?

[AZMike]

Blasphemy laws are inherently a religious act, since you need to set a religious standard for prosecution.

 

No more so than "Hate speech laws," yes? You can recognize that some speech is offensive to others without holding to the tenets of that or any religion. I personally don't agree with blasphemy laws as an American.

 

"What's that got to do with my statement about losing special privileges?"

 

I don't think constitutional rights (in the U.S., at least) constitute "special privileges."

 

"What do you think about US states that say atheists can't hold public office, or Indonesia imprisoning people for stating they're atheists?"

 

Which U.S. states have laws against atheists holding public office?

 

I'm not a Muslim nor an Indonesian, so it doesn't really affect me. I would disagree if the U.S. imprisoned atheists just for being atheists.

 

"AZMike, Merlyn is not a member of BSA so I'm not sure how he could answer your challenge. But that question has been discussed at length in these forums before. You might as well aim the challenge at BSA itself because they seem to 'wink' at Buddhist (for example) memberships. I can't remember if or how a Buddhist responded in the past though."

 

Gotcha. Are you a member of the BSA, though?

 

Could you direct me to some of those threads?

 

Per the WOSM, Buddhism is a religion:

 

A One of the three main principles of Scouting is "Duty to God".

However, the word "God" can mean different things and nobody has the

right to impose his or her concept of God on other people. For example,

it is true, as you say, that Buddhists do not share the concept of a

"personal" God like Christian, Muslim or Jewish people. Does this mean

that Buddhist people are atheists?

 

The concept of atheism is very tricky. Let me give you an example -

a Hindu mystic, Swami Vivekananda, said: "In the same way that certain

religions in the world call a man who does not believe in a God

existing outside his person an atheist, we, for our part, say that an

atheist is a man who does not believe in himself. Not believing in the splendor of one's own soul that's what we call atheism."

 

In the constitution of the World Organization of the Scout Movement, you can find the following definition of "Duty to God":

 

"Adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that

expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom."

 

There are three parts in this definition: (1) adherence to spiritual

principles, (2) loyalty to the religion that expresses them and (3)

acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom.

 

I think that any believer, including Buddhists, can agree on this definition

 

The Scout Approach

 

The role of the Scout leader relating to spiritual development is not to give religious instruction, nor to tack religious observances onto Scout activities. It is to use the kind of experiences offered by Scouting to help young people discover a spiritual reality and incorporate it into their own lives. In fact, Scouting proposes a 5-step approach to spiritual development.

 

 

1. Enable young people to experience spirituality through Scout activities

 

In many cultures, the term "God" designates, on the one hand, the

Creator or source of everything and, on the other hand, absolute

goodness or a principle of salvation which pervades the history of

humanity. There are thus two possible ways of discovering God: by

exploring the wonders of creation and nature; by experiencing life

within a human community.

 

Traditional Scout activities do indeed permit these types of experiences:

 

- Hiking, exploring, camping and actions to preserve the environment

all enable young people to discover and admire the wonders of nature

and life itself.

 

- Welcoming, learning to listen, building relationships with other

people, however poor or destitute, showing compassion, sharing;

co-operating within a team, sharing responsibilities, serving others,

etc. All these are activities which aim at discovering and developing a

human community.

 

2. Making time for young people to discover and express the meaning of life

 

A Scout leader also needs to propose opportunities for evaluating

and celebrating experiences, in other words, to provide activities

which enable young people to analyse their own experiences in the light

of the Scout Law and Promise, in order to discover their meaning and

value. It is through these kinds of activities, which include moments

of silence, meditation and expression, that young people can experience

the need to pray and worship.

 

3. Help each individual to identify with his or her spiritual and religious heritage

 

A major concern is how to help each young person make links between

the experiences gained within Scouting and the spiritual and religious

heritage which has been transmitted to him or her by the family and

local community. With the onset of adolescence, it is normal for a

young person to challenge this heritage, question its relevance and

have doubts. It is necessary to pass through this stage in order to

truly adopt this heritage and develop an adult approach to

spirituality, religion and faith.

 

4. Encourage internalization and personal commitment

 

Spiritual development only has any sense if it becomes internalized

and leads to personal commitment. This is why one of the essential

criteria for progression is the application of acquired spiritual and

religious values in daily life.

 

5. Develop open and respectful attitudes

 

One of the fundamental convictions of the Scout Movement is that

spiritual development should bring people together in fellowship,

instead of separating them or bringing them into conflict. Since modern

societies are those which thrive on communication and exchange and

comprise a multiplicity of cultures and faiths, it is essential to

prepare young people for such diversity. They need to overcome

prejudices and develop open-mindedness and respect for faiths which are

different from their own, whilst being able to express their personal

convictions without aggressiveness.

 

 

"I'd still like to hear your answer to the question I asked a while back."

 

About welfare? Can I ask what prompts your inquiry?

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

AZMike writes:

Blasphemy laws are inherently a religious act, since you need to set a religious standard for prosecution.

 

No more so than "Hate speech laws," yes? You can recognize that some speech is offensive to others without holding to the tenets of that or any religion.

 

But "offensive" isn't necessarily blasphemy, and some statements by some religions are considered blasphemous to a second religion, so you need to decide which one "wins."

 

"What's that got to do with my statement about losing special privileges?"

 

I don't think constitutional rights (in the U.S., at least) constitute "special privileges."

 

Well, I wasn't TALKING about constitutional rights; I was talking about special privileges. Some Christians whine when e.g. a city council has to stop opening meetings with the lord's prayer.

 

"What do you think about US states that say atheists can't hold public office, or Indonesia imprisoning people for stating they're atheists?"

 

Which U.S. states have laws against atheists holding public office?

 

Not state laws, but their state constitutions:

 

Arkansas

"No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court."

Maryland

"That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God"

Mississippi

"No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state"

North Carolina

"Disqualifications of office. The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God"

Pennsylvania

"No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth"

South Carolina

"No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution"

Tennessee

"No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state"

Texas

"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being"

 

I'm not a Muslim nor an Indonesian, so it doesn't really affect me. I would disagree if the U.S. imprisoned atheists just for being atheists.

 

So you don't care about injustice outside the US?

 

[packsaddle]

Yes, I am a member.

Here is one of those old threads:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=20866#id_213050

 

In NC a few years back a voter registrar informed me that in NC, you can't vote if you don't believe in God. I think that has changed since then though. But it was recent enough to be within my lifetime.

"Does this mean that Buddhist people are atheists?"

You'd have to ask a Buddhist but at least one in these threads has affirmed that Buddhism is atheistic. Crank up the ol' Vic20 and search on 'studentscout'. The internet is your friend.

 

In response to your passionate rejection of the some methods that might be used to achieve the goals of eugenics, I had asked if you support socialized medicine. And you responded,

"Are you asking if I believe the government should provide some share of the health care for certain specified groups?"

To which I replied in the affirmative:

"An answer to that question would be OK, especially if you explain how the groups are defined and how much of a share. Or it could include government paying the cost...it doesn't have to be a government doctor or clinic."

And then from you...nothing.

 

So the question is really the one YOU suggested.

Do you "believe the government should provide some share of the health care for certain specified groups?"

[Lisabob]

holy guacamole, Merlyn, that's news to me. Any leads on court cases challenging these? Thanks for posting.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

They're all unenforceable since Torcaso v. Watkins, but raising the issue against an atheist candidate could still cost votes by people not wanting to "waste" their vote.

 

Plus, people still try to enforce it. Even though the unanimous Torcaso decision was in 1961, Herb Silverman challenged South Carolina's constitutional requirement by applying as a notary public in 1991. Out of about 30,000 applications, only his was denied, and the SC government, including the governor, kept fighting this case for eight years, wasting about $300,000 in public money.

 

And in 2009, an atheist was elected to the Asheville, NC city council, and some people threatened lawsuits to remove him because he didn't meet the NC constitutional requirements, but they didn't get anywhere.

[Peregrinator]

Good to see that a number of U.S. States agree with our Founder Baden-Powell:

 

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws."

[packsaddle]

Asheville, North Carolina...it figures. There was a book burning near there a while back. A Baptist church was burning non-KJV bibles to celebrate Halloween. Those wacky Baptists! You just never know what mad-cap antics they'll be up to next, whether it's handling serpents or realistic mock-crucifixions. Truth really IS stranger.

 

As for Herb Silverman...you forgot to mention that he's also Jewish. THAT could be a huge part of his problem as well. Oh yeah, that math professor thing doesn't help much either. Education isn't exactly a social asset in SC.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Why do you hate article VI of the US constitution, Peregrinator?

[Peregrinator]

Why do you hate article VI of the US constitution, Peregrinator?

 

I don't "hate" any part of the Constitution (certain Amendments excepted).

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well, you seemed to approve of governmental discrimination against atheists in holding public office, which is what Article VI prohibits.

[SSScout]

 

I think this trhead should be transferred onto the "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum.

Oh, wait. I forgot.

[Peregrinator]

Well, you seemed to approve of governmental discrimination against atheists in holding public office, which is what Article VI prohibits.

 

Article VI is concerned with those who hold office in the federal government, not those in State or municipal government offices.

 

You write "discrimination" as if it were a bad thing.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Via the 14th amendment, it applies to all state/county/city/etc offices as well.

 

And discrimination based on religious bigotry IS a bad thing.