I agree with Barney Frank

[scoutldr]

I don't disagree, Lisa. It is amazing how sometimes political platforms, when viewed with 20/20 hindsight, turn out to be a lot different than what the people were led to believe (or they refused to believe) at the time.

[Lisabob]

But you apparently do disagree, scoutldr. I hope that I am reading you wrong because you appear to be insinuating that there is an appropriate comparison between the current Democratic party of the United States, and the Nazi party in 1930s Germany. Please tell me that's not what you intended .

[scoutldr]

Of course, I'm not insinuating that the Democrats are the new Nazi party or that we will be facing the ovens again. Most Democrats I know are hard working American patriots that want the same things for their posterity that I do. What does disturb me is the seemingly mindless, blind mesmerization that some are demonstrating and that I believe swept BHO into office. When I walk up and down the aisle in the cube farm at work and see pictures of BHO that say "I am the Dream" displayed next to pictures of family, and see videos of young children chanting "We love Barack" (or words to that effect), or hear people say "I voted for him because he looks like me", and see him give speeches while people behind him look at him adoringly with their eyes glazed over...it gives me pause. Never have I seen this in my 55 years on earth, unless it was Elvis or the Beatles, or MLKJr. I realize this doesn't apply to all, least of all you, a professor of political science...and I welcome your well-thought out analysis of the issues and platforms. It just makes me sad that the (mostly) equally well-thought out votes of the Conservatives were canceled out by the ignorant who don't have the desire and, in some cases, the capability of forming a reasonable analysis. (And, yes, there are ignorant, mindless Conservatives as well, and I feel the same way about mindless Conservativism on the extreme Right), If I go to every person at work who has BHO's picture on their desk and ask, "what's up with that cap and trade stuff", or "what're your thoughts on the meeting in Pittsburgh", or even, "why is Barack breaking his campaign promise that health insurance will be mandatory only for children and no one will be fined if they don't get it", I will get blank stares. Yes, the man on the street stuff scares me. And my analogy to Germany is that if Hannity did the man on the street interview in Germany in 1936, the results would have been much the same..."don't know, don't care", but he sure could whip up a crowd with his cheerleader chants. The masses are impressed with oratory, ceremony and pageantry, not with the policies of the G-20 or the nuclear threat of Iran. The issues they could care less about unless it affects their wallets. I didn't vote for McCain because he looks like me, or because I hated Bush, or because I thought he would give me tax credits even though I don't pay any taxes. I voted for him because I listened to his ideas and weighed his experience and demonstrated character against that of his opponent. I voted for him because I believe in personal initiative and responsibility, not govt handouts. I voted for him in spite of Palin, just like people voted for BHO in spite of Biden. My vote was based on what I thought was best for the country and world as a whole...not based on what they promised to give me or what they looked like. I would expect no less of my fellow citizens.

[GernBlansten]

So those of us who voted to remove the party who drove us to the brink of a depression and entangled us in two unwinnable wars, are just motivated by our adoration for Obama? For some of us, it had nothing to do with Obama, it had to do with getting America back on course.

 

When the Republicans have a track record of successful ideas, perhaps I'll consider them again.

[scoutldr]

Well, as I said in another thread, Gern, I wish political parties would go away. I don't base my vote on campaign slogans or party affiliations. I have never voted a straight party ticket...to me that's a cop out for those who don't want to take the time to analyze the issues. In fact, I wish they would de-couple the VP election and allow us to vote separately for VP. I look at the individuals, their experience, character and detailed plans. A vote for McCain was not a vote for Bush and his policies. McCain is a different man. And was a better man for the job than Obama. I looked at Obama and saw a lack of character and forthrightness. I saw lies, such as the Rev Wright thing. I saw a lack of real experience. And now I see that he promised things that he's not doing and doesn't plan to do. I want a President. Not a care-giver.

[GernBlansten]

McCain lost my vote when he demonstrated his lack of reason and foresight when he choose Sarah as his running mate. He showed me he wasn't ready to be the kind of president America needed.

 

Its difficult to separate party from candidate. Its the party that sets the agenda, the candidate delivers it. A strong candidate can influence party. One could say that GWB was a decent man, but his party pulled him into doing things that were not so good. I don't think he was a very strong candidate. Reagan was. Clinton was. Is Obama? Jury's out for me. But so far, I like what I'm seeing.

 

Even Glenn Beck agrees with me. We are better off with Obama than McCain.

[gwd-scouter]

Yeah, I've been wondering what all the Glen Beck fans think of Beck's statement that McCain would have been a worse President than Obama.

[Eagledad]

>>Yeah, I've been wondering what all the Glen Beck fans think of Beck's statement that McCain would have been a worse President than Obama.

[NWScouter]

During a Town hall meeting I was at, 2500 attending, when Rep. Rick Larsen was told one of the many falsehoods against the Healthcare bill he replied "I have the facts on my side you have Glen Beck".

[Beavah]

Yah, I think in a lot of ways da measure of a man's character is whether he can speak hard truth to his friends, eh?

 

I try not to get in da face of the liberal crowd, eh? I'm an old traditional conservative and mainline Christian. I disagree with 'em, but they're fellow Americans and I try to be civil and make the disagreements a reasoned argument over policy. Not up to me to reign 'em in when they get rude. That's up to their fellow liberals who are men and women of character.

 

Now, when fellow conservatives (or folks who claim to be) start gettin' rude or ridiculous, it bothers me more, eh? Just like it bothers me more if my kids or relatives are misbehavin' than it does if someone else's are. Not my place to correct someone else's relatives. Is my place to pull my own aside.

 

These days, I'm just sick to death of da stupidity and vitriol comin' from da pseudo-conservative side. It's disgustin' to be tryin' to associate the President with Lenin, Stalin, or Hitler. And it's intellectually dishonest (or just plain ignorant) to be framin' the public policy debate about health care in terms of communism, socialism, national socialism, marxist-leninism or any of that.

 

I wish people would stop it. All it does is make folks with conservative viewpoints look ignorant.

 

As to da Barney Franks or ACORNS of da world, that's for the folks on the other side of the aisle to speak out against. I don't mind da liberals lookin' ignorant.

 

Beavah

 

[And for da record, there's nothin' wrong with African-Americans being proud of the president, any more than there was of Irish Catholics bein' proud of John Kennedy or Italian-Americans bein' proud of Antonin Scalia or Wyoming bein' proud of Vice President Cheney. Or New Yorkers bein' proud of da Yankees, for that matter.

 

There's Catholics that keep pictures of da Pope on their desk, and I don't reckon their coworkers should go up to 'em and start yammerin' at 'em about their Church's teachin' on birth control or their position on salvation by faith or whatnot. That'd just be rude, eh?

 

Da rest of us might not understand it when a group celebrates an individual or team they call their own (especially the Yankees, for cryin' out loud) . But it's nothin' to get all torqued about. ]

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[bacchus]

To address some of the accusations I have seen put forth by the media, why is it that when a "right-wing" commentator makes a statement regarding the cost of government-provided healthcare it is a biased lie, but when somebody from the "left-wing" makes a statement about the cost, it is considered fact?

[Beavah]

Bacchus, that's a pretty broad brush you're paintin' with there, eh? Can you give a couple specific examples of what you're talkin' about?

 

My personal take on da cost issue is that nobody's got a clue. There's just too many variables, because yeh can't use da current situation as a guide. Once yeh put new programs in place, people will change their behavior to "play" the new programs. And that's just too hard to predict.

 

On average, though, I reckon it's goin' to be much more expensive than any of the folks who are advocatin' for reform are claimin'.

 

B

 

[sherminator505]

"Once yeh put new programs in place, people will change their behavior to "play" the new programs."

 

Egad! You mean they'll try to find a better way to get health care than clogging up the ER?