Illegal Immigrants

[vol_scouter]

The reason for the outrage is threefold I believe. First, it is ILLEGAL -it is not OK, it is breaking the law. Everyone should be outraged by the government ignoring people who break the law. That is part of the reason to have a government - to enforce the laws of the land. Second, they do take jobs away from Americans. After Katrina, I know several construction firms that took crews to the area. The crews were sent home because the contractors could not compete with the lower pay to the migrants. Third, they are correctly called migrants because they have migrated here to work but do not desire to become Americans. They want their own language and culture. Some want parts of the US to be annexed by Mexico. That makes people angry. Immigrants wish to become part of the society. I work with many immigrants, they all want to learn the language, adopt the customs, and fit in with American society though they still keep some customs from their home alive which is fine. I have taken care of hispanics who have been here for decades who cannot speak any English and I am forced by the government to pay for an interpreter at my (or the hospital's) expense - that makes people angry.

 

The better informed are angry that the citizens of Mexico do not get rid of their current government. Unlike the main stream media likes to portray, Mexico is NOT a poor country. Its' GDP ranks it as 13th behind India and ahead of Australia.

 

Also, hispanic workers do work hard. However, no one actually knows if they would work hard if they were given citizenship or whether they would take advantage of our social welfare state. The democrat party is aware that polling indicates that they would vote overwhelming for democrats. Making them citizens would give the democrat party a lock on power for years to come.

[Hal_Crawford]

I think we should round up everyone that drives faster than the speed limit and take away their licenses. If they do it again we should lock them up. What part of illegal do they not understand? I don't care if there aren't enough cops or jails, I am outraged! I don't care what the impact would be, I'm angry!

 

OK, I am also being sarcastic because what I am suggesting would be as impossible as rounding up all the illegal immigrants and sending them back to Mexico, Canada, Saudi Arabia or England or throwing them into jails that don't exist. BTW, walls won't work when it comes to the folks who come here on legitimate visas and then stay when they expire. Walls won't stop foreigners from coming here legally as tourists, getting medical care and then skipping on the bill.

 

Illegal immigration does pose problems but I haven't seen a viable solution yet. I don't think that one exists. In fact it may be that the benefits to our economy exceed the costs. Because many illegals are working on forged papers with phony social security numbers they are in fact paying FICA and Medicare withholding. They will not get refunds that they would be due if legal and they will not collect medicare. I read recently that illegals contribute an estimated $7 billion to medicare each year. This might suggest that getting rid of illegals would mean tax increases for the rest of us.

 

Hal

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

Vol, According to the IMF, the per capita purchasing power for Mexico ranks 54th, behind Botswana. The World Bank ranks them 45th after Gabon, and the CIA ranks them 63rd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

 

Comparing GDP alone does not account for per capita differences. But you already knew that, didn't you? A person in one country who considers immigrating legally or illegally will not make the decision based on GDP but rather on a very personal per capita basis.

 

[vol_scouter]

True on the per captia income. I wanted to point out that Mexico actually has a large economy. On the per captia rankings by the IMF from the same source: Poland, Lativa, Russia, and Botswana was ahead of Mexico and Libya, Chile, Gabon, and Argentina are immediately behind. Those countries to my knowledge do not have the same issue with migrations of their population. Some of that is due to the proximity of the US to Mexico and the ease to come here. Some of the problem is that the government has not been successful in fostering capitalism in the rural areas. The wealth is concentrated in a few hands from the oil revenues. I said in earlier posts that trying tp round everyone up and put them into prisons is not a workable plan with so many illegal migrants but the border could be made a little more difficult to cross. The real key is to dry up the jobs for the migrants by punishing the employers.

[Beavah]

The real key is to dry up the jobs for the migrants by punishing the employers.

 

How?

 

Sorry to be pedantic here, but OK, we want to try to dry up da jobs.

 

Generally that means dryin' up the demand, because as we discovered with prohibition, punishing the businesses that try to meet the demand doesn't usually work. Just means a really big criminal enterprise to deal with.

 

But OK, we're goin' to try to do it by punishing the employers. How? Random raids on businesses? Seizing the assets of companies that didn't recognize fake documentation? Jailing da guy who hired the out-of-work friend from church?

 

10 million illegals. Hundreds of thousands of businesses.

 

Court dockets are already full most places. So yeh have to add courts, and clerks, and prisons, and judges, and lawyers, and police... lots and lots of federal police.

 

How are yeh goin' to fund it? Execute it fairly? Deal with da huge economic impact?

 

Beavah

 

[scoutldr]

How are we going to fund it???

 

How about we use the current model...just print more money and let the national debt soar. What's the problem?

[Mr. Boyce]

I agree with Vol Scouter, although at one time I held a very lax view on the illegals.

 

I read a book by a policy analyst (was it Luttwack?) who pointed out that illegals dampen the earning power of current American minorities. . . in an evolutionary way, they usurp the bottom economic rung, and their numbers lower the economic leverage that, say, blacks could exert.

 

This isn't news to Capitalist USA. For generations, large employers have shipped in workers from southern Europe, etc., to replace basic laborers with those they can pay less.

 

I pity Mexico in all this: her youth is being forced out; similar to a brain drain of sorts.

[Scoutfish]

"After you incarcerated the first few and people knew the government was serious, they would quit hiring them."

 

Sorry, that hasn't worked so far with murder, robbery, kidnapping, tax evasion, or even gun laws.

 

You can make the laws tougher, trhe penalties harsher, ....but somebody somewhere will plan even harder think : "I will get away with it and not get caught!"

 

[le Voyageur]

 

 

Sadly, I keep seeing the radical right wing memes being echoed by nldscouts postings. The problem with these arguments for such draconian actions will require the complete over haul of the Bill of Rights (read the 14th Amendment), and the creation of a fascist state where everyones rights, and civil liberties will be absent. It's past time to start turning a deaf ear to these simplistic solutions, and the vomiting of the Rush's, Beck's, Coulter's, Savages and etc., and consider what is written at the base of the Statue of Liberty....

[scoutldr]

I refuse to be made to feel petty and uncaring because I expect the laws of the land to be obeyed and enforced.

[Scoutfish]

First thing I want to say is this: Does anybody know who the first illegal immigrants were?

I'll give you a hint: US!

 

We came here from other lands and pretty much declared that we were taking over. We swarmed and multiplied like a nest of cockroaches.We also decided there wasn't room for anybody but us. We killed, maimed and slaughtered many Native Americans and justified it by calling them savages! Can you beleive that? We called them savages?

 

We ran them from their villages, homes,and cities. We herded up thousands and thousand of Natives and "let" them crowd together on barren wretched pieces of earth and called them reservations.

 

So , just something to think about, we were the very first uninvited, festering group of illegal aliens that ruined an existing nation.

 

Now having said that, My only issue is wether they are legal or illegal.

 

But then again, it's kinda arrogant for thousands and millions of immigrants to come over here for opportunity, and then to decide when to close the door on everybody else who is doing the exact same thing!.

 

Sound alot like "do as I say, not as I do.

 

My only point here is to say that nobody should act self rightous or indignant over illegals and immigrants invading, when that IS THE VERY HISTORY OF AMERICA itself!

 

Another point of thought: How many of you would sneak into another country where you did not speak/ understand the laws. language, customs or anything else, - work your fingers to the bone while constantly being harrassed, targeted, beat up on - all so you could provide for your family?

 

Yeah, that's what I thought!

Again, my only issue is wether they are illegal. If they line up and apply for citizenship like it's expected to be, then I welcome them!

 

[scoutldr]

MY ancestors immigrated legally from Germany through the port of Philadelphia, according to the laws that were in force at the time.

[Scoutfish]

Yeah, my ancesters did too. And it was through laws made at the time.

 

BUT... those laws were made by folks that just over took this land.

 

My point is this: If immigration was so closely and tightly controled back in the 1300's and 1400's, there wouldn't be any United States.

We would be citizens of all the asian, European, and African countries still.

 

Before you blst people entering a country where they are not wanted, just remember that the current population of America started that way!

 

If you want to cry about immigrants, illegals and unwanted people...cry to a Native American Indian!

[le Voyageur]

I refuse to be made to feel petty and uncaring because I expect the laws of the land to be obeyed and enforced....scoutldr

 

Protecting the status quo with laws under the nativist banner of jingoism is wrong when it infringes Constitutional rights. The 14th Amendment trumps. Laws without Constitutional foundations must never be obeyed....

[Scoutfish]

le Voy

I do not want illegals any more than anybody else!

 

But to say their laws didn't apply because they weren't recognized under OUR constituion?

To say OUR 14th Amendment is all that matters is arrogant!

By that very logic you stated, then when the next invaders approach America, all they have to say is : "Your laws are not recognized under our constitution!"

 

And years later, we cannot plead , complain or cry about how we were invaded, lest we hear that our

 

"Nativst laws" meant nothing to THIER constituion and whatever passes for their 14th amendment.

 

Now as another note:

 

"Protecting the status quo with laws under the nativist banner of jingoism is wrong when it infringes Constitutional rights. "

 

Seeing as there was no United States yet, no Organized Unions or Constiitution, how would the Constition be infringed upon?

It hadn't been thought of, written, or signed yet.

 

Basically, you are saying that we can invade anybody or any existing country we want because ther laws do not apply to ours...even if ours are not even created or written yet!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)