Courtesy and Civility

[BrentAllen]

Is Obama lying about including illegals? You decide.

 

Obama is constantly saying he wants the plan to cover all 43 (or so) million people in the country who don't have insurance. A break down of that 43 million shows it INCLUDES the nearly 10 million illegals here. So, why does Obama keep inlcuding them in the number he wants to insure, if he doesn't mean it?

 

The Dems have blocked every amendment proposal that would require patients to provide identification showing they are citizens. If this isn't included, and everybody is covered, what would stop illegals from getting tax-payer funded health care?

 

So, is he lying?

[packsaddle]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gVVujKcSD5hoS9sYwghNh3Xqmf1gD9AKK4MO0

 

From the above web site,

"THE FACTS: The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants could buy private health insurance, as many do now, and they could also buy into a new government-run insurance plan if Congress creates one. But unlike legal residents, they wouldn't get federal subsidies to help them. The bill's exact language: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully in the United States.""

[scoutingagain]

From Fact Check:

 

OBAMA: "The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally." One congressman, South Carolina Republican Joe Wilson, shouted "You lie!" from his seat in the House chamber when Obama made this assertion. Wilson later apologized.

 

THE FACTS: The facts back up Obama. The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants could buy private health insurance, as many do now, but wouldn't get tax subsidies to help them.

 

Hey lots of people have called Presidents liars. I can't recall ever hearing a President called a liar in the middle of a speech in the chambers of congress on national television before.

 

 

As I noted in the other thread. If one wanted to call Obama out on something it should have been on the cost of the programs and how it will be paid for.

 

SA

 

SA

 

[BrentAllen]

Sure, and illegals aren't allowed to vote either, right?

 

Instead of one meaningless statement, how about including plans to prevent abuse of the system from illegals? Why do the Dems block this, everytime it is brought up?

 

If Obama doesn't want to be called a liar, he should use accurate numbers. But then, the problem wouldn't sound nearly as big or as pressing.

[packsaddle]

Actually, I think Beavah has responded more strongly to Wilson than Obama did. Obama has been very calm in all this.

 

I just heard that a MP who called Margaret Thatcher a liar was thrown out of Parliament, then re-entered, called her a liar again, and was thrown out again. The response to Wilson was far more subdued in comparison.

[GernBlansten]

Yes, the demoncrats have played this well. They basically said it was unfortunate, but lets talk healthcare. Let the republicans police themselves. The republican leadership (Boehner, et al) demanded he call the whitehouse last night to apologize which he did. Boehner then requested he take to the floor of the house today and apologize the to the rest of congress, which he refused. It will be interesting to see how they eat their own.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Brent,

 

Can you document widespread illegal alien voting? Not isolated incidents, but widespread voting? I live in Oklahoma City and we have our fair share of Hispanics. I know because I drive thru little Mexico to and from work every day and I can guarantee you that a number of them are illegals. They tend to work in the Mexican restaurants, lay bricks, roof houses and do other day labor to send money back to their family in Mexico. On occasion when my mother has needed to go to the emergency room per doctors orders after hours, the ER is full of Hispanic folks. Why? Because the hospitals can not refuse care and because they don't have health insurance. While I'm not in favor of a government provided healthcare system paid by my tax dollars, I sincerely do not believe the government could get away with providing healthcare to illegal citizens and hang onto their jobs very long. Voting? Same thing. I've been voting for 30+ years and I have to sign my name and show my registration. Never seen any illegals hanging around the polling place. My experience is that they like to keep a very, very low profile. IF they drive, they usually do so about 10 MPH below the speed limit to avoid law enforcement. Much of the illegal aliens living on our dime is talk radio myth from where I live.

[BrentAllen]

Sure. Check out all the illegal voting DOCUMENTED here:

 

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Legalissues/lm28.cfm#_ftn8

 

I particulary like the part about opening Pandora's Box on this issue:

 

In 1997, the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's office in Dallas were investigating voting by non-citizens. They sent a computerized tape of the names of individuals who had voted to the INS requesting a check against INS records, but the INS refused to cooperate with the criminal investigation.[28] An INS official was quoted as saying that the INS bureaucracy did not "want to open a Pandora's Box. If word got out that this is a substantial problem, it could tie up all sorts of manpower. There might be a few thousand [illegal voters] in Dallas, for example, but there could be tens of thousands in places like New York, Chicago or Miami."[29]

 

Why would illegals register to vote, as opposed to keeping a low profile?

 

"As the grand jury reported, many aliens "register to vote so that they can obtain documents identifying them as U.S. citizens" and have "used their voters' cards to obtain a myriad of benefits, from social security to jobs with the Defense Department."[21] The U.S. Attorney at the time estimated that there were at least 80,000 illegal aliens registered to vote in Chicago, and dozens were indicted and convicted for registering and voting.[22]"

[packsaddle]

You know, if I knew I was in another country illegally there is no way I'd try to VOTE in their elections. That seems like one of the dumbest things any illegal alien could do. There's huge risk and no benefit. I'm trying to figure out why anyone would do that, no matter how stupid they were.

 

Edited in response to Brent: I guess I just don't think in criminal terms. Maybe that's why women always used to dismiss me as a Boy Scout. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Beavah]

Yah, let me just be clear and then yeh all can go back to talkin' about illegal immigrants.

 

When we're talkin' about civility and courtesy, it doesn't matter one whit whether yeh think da president is daft, or lying, or puffing, or wearin' an ugly necktie.

 

Yeh show courtesy and civility because he's da president, and you're sittin' in a joint session of the national legislature.

 

Out on the lawn or at some political event where you're actin' as a private citizen you have more latitude to boo or be a cad. But sittin' in the Chamber you aren't a private citizen, eh? And to be honest, I don't much care for it when people of any persuasion come to speeches just to heckle or shout down da speaker. Even as a private citizen, it's obnoxious and rude.

 

The president could be lying outright. It doesn't matter. Da behavior of the Representative from South Carolina is inexcusable, shameful. Any party or group that truly believes in "Timeless Values" would agree. And any man with any sense of personal honor would resign his post in shame after committin' such a gaffe.

 

Beavah

 

[gwd-scouter]

The Governor and the Congressman. South Carolina is certainly getting a good bit of national medial attention these days. At least the attention is on something other than our abysmal high school dropout rate, among other things.

[Lisabob]

I agree with Beavah. I'm deeply dismayed that people can't seem to have honest differences of opinions anymore without resorting to the worst sort of emotion-laden ranting and raving. If that's the best our country's leadership can do we're all in big trouble.

 

Think about this in a scouting context. Maybe you take your troop to summer camp. One night some of your senior scouts get into a shouting match with boys from another troop and ugly things are said, maybe worse. What would you do with those boys? Would you say "well the other boys started it?" Would you say "well last year troop 123 had a rumble, so who cares if our boys shouted insults, that's just the way it is?" Would you say "well the boys in the other troop really were jerks and deserved it?"

 

If you would, I hope you'll stay away from my son's troop.

 

But most of you seem to take your responsibilities as scout leaders seriously. So probably, you'd be really disappointed in the poor behavior of your youth leaders. You'd probably have some pretty serious SM conferences with them about the scout oath and law. You might put their advancement plans on hold for a while to drive home the point that their behavior was unacceptable and you expect better. Quite possibly you'd expect them to apologize to the whole troop for damaging the troop's reputation. You might even ask that they resign their PORs since they have shown themselves unworthy to hold them.

 

In some ways this is no different. Boys pay attention to when adults are hypocrites. If we don't condemn boorish behavior among adults, the boys will realize that all this talk about "friendly, courteous, kind" and so on is really just a lot of hot air.

 

Boehner was right to demand this fellow apologize to his fellow House members, as well as to Obama. He embarrassed them all.

 

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Yeah Lisabob,

I often wonder if Brent was my son's SM, would I allow him to remain in that unit?

Hmmmmmm.

[BrentAllen]

I can answer that for you. No, you wouldn't.

[GernBlansten]

Well Brent,

If you can't separate your political views from your scouting obligations, I guess I would pull my son from your influence.