The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America New Rule for Pastors

[DanKroh]

Bacchus,

 

Who said they were unmarried? Or at least in a civil union? Or if they live in state where neither of those options are open to them, is it their fault that their commitment cannot be legally recognized?

 

Or are Florida couple Caroline Leto and Venera Magazzu promiscuous because they have been in a committed relationship for 70 years without the benefit of marriage?

http://tiny.cc/u4xZh

[DanKroh]

"This is the way other denominations have managed to exclude gays from ministry without actually coming out and saying it, "Gee, to ordain you, if you're in a relationship, you have to be married - you're not, so that solves that, now doesn't it?""

 

Hey Vicki, how you doing?

 

Yep, this is going to start becoming a sticky wicket for those denominations, isn't it, as more states begin supporting marriage equality? Not that they don't have the right to control who they wish to ordain, but they are going to have to come right out and say it now, and not have this easy out.

 

one further note about promiscuity and marriage. Heterosexual marriage does not automatically exclude promiscuity, any more than homosexuality automatically includes it. (Just ask Mrs. Sanford.) What was that OGE mentioned about judging individuals on their own merits?

[Hal_Crawford]

Bacchus:

Get a dictionary, look up promiscuous and you will be able to answer your own question.

 

While we are on the subject of promiscuity, lets look at your screen name. Bacchus is the Roman name for the Greek god Dionysus. Dionysus is best known as the god of wine and grapes but he was also the god of sex and fertility. The Festival of Dionysus was a five day festival held in the Spring. The middle three days (called the agon from which we get our word agony) were days of theatre (tragedies like Oedipus Rex or Antigone and a Satyr play, a broad sex farce), drinking and promiscuous sex, lots of both.

 

I just wanted to point out that your screen name is the pagan god of among other things, promiscuity. Kinda ironic, ain't it?

 

Also, Dionysus (Bacchus) was often portrayed as having the characteristics of both sexes and his/her followers were known to swing both ways. Certainly, homosexuality was accepted by the ancient Greeks and Romans who followed Dionysus.

 

BTW, the fifth day of the festival (the Ecclesia) was a day of prayer and contemplation (and probably serious hangovers). One of the ceremonies involved assigning fathers to all the three month old babies conceived during the previous festival. These were fathers in the eyes of the gods and one of my professors maintained that this was the origin of the term "godfather".

 

This concludes our ancient history minute; we now return you to your regularly scheduled bashing of each others religions.

 

Hal

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

Well sure, the BSA could stop chartering all the ELCA units over the ELCA's new policy - the BSA doesn't need the 6th largest sponsor of Scout Units representing over 122,000 youth.

 

I guess they'll finally be able to merge all the councils in Minnesota to one super council now that the Lutherans will be out.

 

But then again, as I recall, there is something in the partnership agreement about how the Chartered Organizaton runs units consistent with their own standards, not just the BSA's.

 

 

[Gunny2862]

Ok, cutting to the chase.

 

Moral, see : http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral

* Main Entry: 1moral

* Pronunciation: \ˈmȯr-əl, ˈmr-

* Function: adjective

* Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin moralis, from mor-, mos custom

* Date: 14th century

 

1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment e : capable of right and wrong action

2 : probable though not proved : virtual

3 : perceptual or psychological rather than tangible or practical in nature or effect

 

morally \-ə-lē\ adverb

synonyms moral, ethical, virtuous, righteous, noble mean conforming to a standard of what is right and good. moral implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong . ethical may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness, fairness, or equity . virtuous implies moral excellence in character . righteous stresses guiltlessness or blamelessness and often suggests the sanctimonious . noble implies moral eminence and freedom from anything petty, mean, or dubious in conduct and character .

 

from the above: implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong

[packsaddle]

"These were fathers in the eyes of the gods and one of my professors maintained that this was the origin of the term "godfather"."

Hal, that is just so delicious! I can't wait to work it into some boring spot in a lecture.

Vicki, OK I accept your characterization of 'cowardly' but it also brings to mind that wonderful male trait of 'passive-aggressive resistance'.

Gunny, I agree with your embrace of moral relativism. There really isn't anything else.

 

[Vicki]

Pack, you beat me to it! Hal, that was great - I'd never heard the godfather angle. And, Pack, I wasn't referring to the cowardly part when I said hi - I was referring to the sexist claptrap of God as a "he" - sexist claptrap being our favorite joust as we wander from fire to fire. Obviously got a little obtuse there. But as long as we're on the topic - I'm not sure the Y endowed folks have the passive-aggressive market exactly cornered:

[packsaddle]

"But as long as we're on the topic - I'm not sure the Y endowed folks have the passive-aggressive market exactly cornered:

[Gunny2862]

Pack,

I didn't say I embraced moral relativism.

I believe in what I believe is the truth - my worldview if you will.

But in the public sphere my worldview should and most often does influence my viewpoint and hopefully actions. That said, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't be allowed to have your worldview and act in accordance with it.

 

And that both of us may find our worldviews in conflict with civil, or other authorities, at which point we have choices to make.

 

But at least we should be able to talk about things w/o bashing each other.

[John-in-KC]

ELCA, through the National Lutheran Association on Scouting (www.nlas.org) has a seat at the table on BSA's National Religious Relationships Committee. I rather suspect (because I'm a member of NLAS, as is Ken (narraticong) that the NLAS board will have some serious conversations with other national level volunteers and professionals.

 

Vicki, email coming your way.

[BDPT00]

Some churches are in favor or this, and others are not. Each church and synod has the option of whether or not they wish to offer a call to a gay pastor. Putting all of the ELCA churches in the same pool isn't anywhere near to being accurate. Some churches are in or near gay communities, and this might make sense for them. Now they have that option.

I agree with Calico... The correct current stance of the BSA should be to do nothing. There are no fires to put out, and we could easily overreact. No point in doing that.

BDPT00

 

 

[bacchus]

Some have been posting comments in another thread that really belong over here.

 

So to get to the real question: Why would BSA change what they have been doing for 100 years? Why would the BSA lower its moral standards?

 

Are some of you suggesting the requests of one 800 lb. gorilla be honored for the sake of change, and the requests of all the other gorillas out there who still have the same high standards be overruled?

[sherminator505]

"Why would BSA change what they have been doing for 100 years? Why would the BSA lower its moral standards?"

 

I'm not sure that a change in how the BSA does things equates to a lowering of moral standards. To cite a comparable change, for much of the LDS Church's history, blacks were not admitted as their dark skin was regarded as the mark of Cain. This has changed. Would you consider this to be a lowering of moral standards?

[OldGreyEagle]

A Long Long Long time ago in a place far far away, I was in a managerial position which required annual employee appraisals. One of the worst ratings I had to give was "ethics". While I have met several people over my lifetime who I think would qualify as having questionable ethics, I have never met anyone who stepped up to me and said, hey you know I am unethical. Everyone is ethical to their state of mind.

 

The whole question of the BSA "lowering their moral standard" implies you think accepting gays and atheists as lowering the moral standard. And to several people it may undeed seem so.

 

But what do you tell the people who think that if the BSA allowed Gay and Atheist memebers would instead be "Raising thier moral standard"

 

Aye there is the rub

[DanKroh]

"Are some of you suggesting the requests of one 800 lb. gorilla be honored for the sake of change, and the requests of all the other gorillas out there who still have the same high standards be overruled?"

 

Bacchus, the problem is, no one is trying to overrule what you do in your unit. If your CO wants to have a "no gays" policy, have at it. However, COs that DO want to allow homosexuals in their units (like the UU church) are currently being dictated to in a way that is contrary to their beliefs. Let us who think that our moral standards would be raised by eliminating this discrimination do as we please in our units.

 

BTW, Bacchus, in reviewing this thread, I noticed you never answered my questions. Is a homosexual couple who are married/in a civil union still promiscuous? Is a homosexual couple who have been in a committed relationship for 70 years without the benefit of marriage/civil union (because it is denied them, not because they don't want it) still promiscuous?