The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America New Rule for Pastors

[skeptic]

So, are we going to see some new edicts nailed to the door(s) of some of the Lutheran churches?

[packsaddle]

Skeptic, I thought they were 'theses'.

Merlyn, as if I have to tell you....'hell' is a myth and 'Satan' doesn't exist.

[Hal_Crawford]

I don't think anyone nails edicts or theses on church doors anymore. More likely a sign that says "Under New Management".

[Vicki]

So, God is welcoming a new person into heaven and, as they're walking past a closed door, suddenly God says, "Shhh" - person, of course, says, "Why?" God says, "because they think they're the only ones up here."

 

And who says God's a guy anyway - God said "in my image" and then created man and woman. Hmmm. And don't give me that, "using 'he' is a linguistic convention which includes men and women." Not buying it anymore, gettin' too old for nonsense.

 

Hey, Pack, how's it goin'?

Vicki

[NWScouter]

Ah, now blogs, newslettters, facebook, twitter and websites. The printing press back in 1517 was high tech. So on door with the potluck notices (remember this was the start of the Lutherans) it was written in Latin to call for debate by the college community. But like the internet, it was quickly picked up by the printers and translated and sent out to all Europe.

 

Just so you know a little about me -- I'm a guy for his senior seminar in History at the University of Washington wrote a paper on the Marburg Colloquy where Luther and Zwingli argued over the essence of communion.(This message has been edited by nwscouter)

[skeptic]

Theses they were; 95 of them.

 

Martin Luther: An Augustinian priest, biblical scholar, and linguist, was born and died in Eisleben, Saxony, a duchy in northwestern Germany. His attack on ecclesiastical abuses, the Ninety-five Theses, signaled the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. Luther's father wanted him to be a lawyer and sent him to the University of Erfut, where he received a B.A. degree in 1502 and an M.A. in 1505.

 

Like other German Augustinians of this era, Luther sought a stricter observance of the rules of the order and this was reflected in his teaching and writing. Luther taught at the new University of Wittenberg from 1508 to 1546 and received a doctorate of theology in 1512.

 

 

Ideas

 

- Human nature is corrupt, weak, self-centered, and in a state of rebellion from God; the fruit of the fall from grace is death.

 

- God's laws show sinners their distance from God and arouse a desire for redemption.

 

- Although God in his justice could condemn humanity, he chooses out of love to redeem sinners; this love os most fully manifest on the cross.

 

- In the process of redemption one can do nothing but have faith, an absolute trust and response to God's words; human merit and good works are rejected.

 

- The foremost vehicle of God's saving word is the Bible, which presents the whole of the good news for human salvation.

 

- The Catholic priesthood, monasticism, and canon law are rejected as human institutions that make the false claim to control the spirit of God.

 

- The sacraments are signs that communicate God's saving word.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

[CalicoPenn]

The Institutional Head is not a registered adult leadership position in the BSA - at least it's not listed on the Adult Leader Application. Since IH is not a registered leadersgip position, there is no conflict with the BSA.

 

Now for the real ticklish part. The Institutional Head (or the groups board) appoints the Chartered Organization Representative - which is, according to the Adult Leader Application, a registered leadership position in the BSA.

 

Let's toss this hypothetical out there. What if the openly gay institutional head of a congregation, who is in a committed relationship, and whose church sponsors the biggest and most successful Pack and biggest and most successful Troop in the District (or even COuncil) - the units that are stars of the popcorn fund-raising program, that consistently delivers high FOS donations - what if this pstor appoints his life partner as the Chartered Organization Representative because his life partner happened to be an Eagle Scout and would do the units a world of good? Does anyone reallt think the Council would risk losing star units over an openly gay COR?

 

As for the God discussion, sometimes I imagine that there will be this huge waiting room full of Catholics, Lutherans, Muslims, Mormons waiting to get through the pearly gates who get increasingly frustrated when they see Athiests, Deists, Buddhists, Wiccans, Agnostics, and Unitarians waltz right in without so much as a by your leave until someone finally asks the question "Why?" and God answers - "Because they're the only ones that got it right - don't kill, don't steal, treat each other with respect - everything else was some clown putting words in my mouth"

[GernBlansten]

Ok. I understand that the IH is not a member of BSA but a partner, in that they sign the charter agreement with BSA. One would think that partnership would imply that the IH be up to the standards of membership, but it looks like the ELCA dodge a bullet there. Doggone loopholes.

 

Wouldn't this be a grand opportunity for the BSA to reaffirm its position against the gay agenda and pull all charters from ELCA charter partners? Wouldn't that action alone bring solidarity amongst all other remaining charter partners to reaffirm their position against this encroachment on moral values? If the BSA will not stand against this tide, who will?

[bacchus]

""Because the change is one of interpretation. Morally straight is a general term which leaves a lot of room for individual interpretation." I agree. When the Oath was written "straight" was the opposite of crooked just as gay was the opposite of sad." -Hal

 

You can argue that our modern translation of "straight" to mean heterosexual does not coincide with the Baden Powell translation of "straight", but you would have a difficult time arguing that the Baden Powell definition of "morally straight" allows an individual to be promiscuous, regardless of the gender with which they intend to be promiscuous.

 

IH and COR issues. IH is the IH and probably has issues to deal with other than scouting. In the case of a congregation, he would have a lot of things to cover other than scouting. Leave the poor guy alone. If he's not in harmony with BSA's ideals of what's morally straight, who cares? Be tolerant.

On the other hand, if the IH appoints a COR who is not in harmony with the BSA definition of morally straight, then we have a problem. He or she cannot be an active scouter. So going back to Penn's hypothetical, if this COR over the "star units" in the council is not in harmony with the scout oath, BSA doesn't really have a choice but to reject that individual. Do we really want promiscuous adults out there for our young men to look up to as mentors?

By the way, in that particular hypothetical, the individual appointed would probably have been appointed to prove a point or lower BSA's standards.

[Trevorum]

Bacchus,

You did not address Calico's scenario but instead you changed it to suit your preconcieved notions.

 

Calico asked what would happen if the openly gay IH appointed his Eagle Scout "life partner" in "a committed relationship" to be the COR. How in the world did you then assume that the Eagle Scout CoR would be "promiscuous"?

 

I can only assume you believe that all gay people are ipso facto promiscuous and unworthy of being mentors.

[sandspur]

Bacchus wrote:

You can argue that our modern translation of "straight" to mean heterosexual does not coincide with the Baden Powell translation of "straight", but you would have a difficult time arguing that the Baden Powell definition of "morally straight" allows an individual to be promiscuous, regardless of the gender with which they intend to be promiscuous.

 

Sure, but who equated gay with promiscuous? I think the ELCA (harking WAY back to the original post, if any of us can remember it now) said they would ordain those in a committed monogamous relationship, with the gender of the partner being irrelevant.

 

I also think ELCA has said they will NOT ordain those who are promiscuous, regardless of being gay or straight.

 

In my book, gay is having sexual attraction to one of the same gender. It does NOT equal pedophile or promiscuous, although a gay person can be those things.

 

If ones religion thinks gay=sin, I am OK with that, since religion is a free choice association. By the same token, if your religion does not equate gay with sin, again, I am OK with that. Your religion (and mine) are free to make its best interpretation of Gods will, and act on that. As long as acting on that does not harm others, we can argue all we want (and have fun doing it)and someday maybe God will tell us who got it the closest to right.

 

[bacchus]

Trevor,

 

Why is it that an unmarried homosexual couple in a committed relationship is not promiscuous, when an unmarried heterosexual couple in a committed relationship is? Have our standards really sunk that low?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

To quote Inigo Montoya, "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/promiscuous

[Vicki]

Bacchus, I think the problem is that wonderful irony to which another poster referred - gay couples can't marry in the ELCA church. This is the way other denominations have managed to exclude gays from ministry without actually coming out and saying it, "Gee, to ordain you, if you're in a relationship, you have to be married - you're not, so that solves that, now doesn't it?" How cowardly is that?

 

Vicki

[packsaddle]

No one said that about committed heterosexual couples either. The fact that they are a committed monogamous couple automatically excludes promiscuity regardless of marital status.

If promiscuity is the qualification for ejection, then BSA should start dumping all promiscuous persons, regardless of gender or sexual preference. I read nothing in the membership requirements about marital status.