The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America New Rule for Pastors

[erickelly65]

BadenP...perhaps everything can be substantiated but you havent done so as of yet...

[bacchus]

"My answer would be for the BSA to do the same thing the BSA did when the Mormon Church first started charteing units - much to the very vocal chagrin of many volunteer scouters - Nothing."

 

So you are saying that back in 1913, 2 years after scouting came to the States, that there were already "many volunteer scouters" and they had "very vocal chagrin"? I'm interested in seeing the newspaper articles you got that from. And exactly what immoral influence was it that the BSA did not want?

[BadenP]

erickelly

I don't know what you want but you can go to the "Holy See" Vatican City website and find most of any documentation you want as well as on the internet you will have hundreds to choose from and you can pick and choose. As for the dogma of being the only one true church leading to salvation look at any catechism or read any catholic propaganda book and there it will be in black and white or you could even ask your priest. The sad truth is that most CAtholics are truly afraid of asking their priest any question where they might look as if they were challenging a church teaching but that is the only way to expose false teachings for what they are. If you want a good book reference written for the average layperson try The Story of Christian Spirituality, Gordon Mursell, I guarantee it will open your eyes and cause you to question.

[GernBlansten]

baccus,

I believe the chagrin was in the 1970's when the BSA faced a racism charge because LDS units would not provide leadership positions to dark skinned youth as they required those leadership positions to coincide with priesthood roles. Until then, the LDS rejected dark skinned people from holding any leadership position within the church.

When that became public, the BSA and the LDS faced a crossroads. The LDS prophets lucky had a revelation that allowed dark skinned males to hold priesthood positions, thus eliminating the contention. But the issue caught many BSA members off guard, realizing that they had indeed racists within their ranks.

 

I consider this change in theology by the ELCA no different than the Mormons changing their rules for priesthood.

[Eamonn]

So I need to do an Internet search in order to find this National Study?

 

I was very young when Vatican II was going on.

I was a cute looking Alter Boy!! At the time.

But even at that young age I remember a lot of excitement and a lot of talk about Church Unity.

Could have been the Degree On Ecumenism that came out in 1964?

 

The late Pope John Paul II in his writings and works did a lot to reach out to other churches and religions. I don't ever remember him telling anyone that if they wanted to get to Heaven, that they needed to convert?

 

With Judaism, therefore, we have a relationship which we do not have with any other religion. You are our dearly beloved brothers, and in a certain way, it could be said that you are our elder brothers.

Pope John Paul II (13 April 1986)

 

So believe what you want, it is a free country!

This is of course very true.

But when someone posts:

" For example RC priests are supposed to be celibate however several national studies showed that over 65% of priests interviewed admitted to being openly homosexual, while most of the rest admitted to having homosexual leanings"

Then is unable to back it up with the study?

I think I know what to believe. Or not believe.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

[sherminator505]

What I challenged specifically was BadenP's assertion that "After all no one religion has an exclusive on getting to heaven, even though the Catholics like to think they do..." To explain why I challenged that assertion, I would like to repeat the following from the Second Vatican Council's "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church" (after Schreck):

 

"Those also can attain everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or His church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does divine providence deny the help necessary for salvation who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who strive to live a good life, thanks to His grace. Whatever goodness or truth is found among them is looked upon by the church as a preparation for the gospel."

 

Note that this passage says nothing about Christians who have been baptized in the Trinity and are recognized by the church as brothers in Christ. It refers to non-Christians who may yet receive God's salvation. This would tend to blast a great big hole in the notion that the Catholic Church lays an exclusive claim to salvation, which is what BadenP asserts. I may not have BadenP's professed knowledge and expertise, but I did read the textbook and I did pay attention in confirmation class.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[bacchus]

Penn and Gern, though interesting, your accusations do nothing to support your views that homosexuals should be admitted into scouting.

 

In addition, your predecessors who came from all-white churches were very upset about the Mormons settling in Missouri. One of their main complaints was that this new "voting bloc" was primarily from Northern states and therefore against slavery. To remove these immigrants from their territory they raped the women and killed many good men, women, and children. The locals then forced their new neighbors across the Western plains and the Rockies in the middle of winter - which killed off some more. So the next time you call somebody racist, look at the beam in your own eye.

 

Now let's get off religion and back to the discussion of whether the BSA should allow homosexuals entry.

[GernBlansten]

baccus,

I'm sorry I struck a raw nerve with facts. I'll try to avoid the obvious.

 

As for "get off religion and back to the discussion of whether the BSA should allow homosexuals entry",

 

well, isn't religion the sole reason to keep homosexuals from leadership roles in the BSA? I mean, there is no factual basis that homosexuals pose any greater real threat to our youth than heterosexuals. Only religious reasons prevail. Right?

[vol_scouter]

Gern,

 

The answer depends upon the studies and facts that you wish to use as was discussed at length between DanKroh, Hal_Crawford, and I. None of the information should be considered entirely factual. Some information points to a significant increase in risk for same sex molestation for adult male homosexual leaders while other would say that the risk is about the same as for heterosexuals. I find the former studies more compelling whereas Dan and Hal find the latter studies more compelling. So religion is not the only reason to avoid homosexual leaders depending upon who you wish to believe. All the studies that I have read have significant flaws that I suspect at least some of the time is related to viewpoint. These are questions that I doubt will ever scientifically be proven one way or the other.

[GernBlansten]

So Volscouter,

barring any definitive evidence that one's sexual identity has a greater risk to youth than the other, wouldn't it be prudent to not discriminate on that basis until such factual evidence was presented? Anything else would be considered prejudiced, wouldn't it?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

GernBlansten writes:

well, isn't religion the sole reason to keep homosexuals from leadership roles in the BSA? I mean, there is no factual basis that homosexuals pose any greater real threat to our youth than heterosexuals.

 

As far as I've been able to determine, the BSA has never argued in court that gays are excluded because they are considered more of a threat to youth. This is only brought up outside of court, such as when Mazzuca was asked about gays in the BSA, and his reply was about molestation.

[OldGreyEagle]

The report that 65% of priests interviwed were homosexual really scared me so I Googled the following:

 

"catholic priests" 65% Homosexual

 

I did not find any story that said 65% of interviewed priests are homosexual. I may have done it wrong. Perhaps someone else could Google what I did, perhaps you will find something

[CalicoPenn]

I guess I missed the point of the discussion - I didn't think we were talking about whether the BSA sould accept homosexuals. I thought the question was what should the BSA do about the ELCA now that the ELCA has promulgated a rule allowing gay people in a committed relationship to be pastors. I stand by my answer - the BSA should do nothing. It should be noted that the ELCA has allowed gay pastors for a while now - but the rule was they must be celibate. Something I'm curious about is that the reporting I've read says that the ELCA's new rule is that only gay people in a committed relationship may become pastors - that seems to mean that a single, celibate gay person can no longer be a pastor in the ELCA? Is there anyone who is part of the ELCA that can clarify?

 

Perhaps I misspoke about the Mormon Church - I was under an obviously false impression that the Mormon Church didn't become paticularly active in the BSA until the 1970's, mostly because of the folderol in my council in the late 1970's about Mormon Church units - and it had nothing to do with racism.

 

 

[BadenP]

Eamonn & sherm

You know the old saying " a liitle bit of knowledge is dangerous", and I see it applies with you two as well. Keep your heads buried in the sand but the truth is out there and you continue to not see. Yes JP II was a great ecumenical pope but the new guy has managed to undermine everything that he had accomplished and is continuing down that dark road, priests are at an all time low and in our archdiocesan paper it recently had an article stating that in the USA 75% of all priests and women religious are over 63 years old.

 

As far as homosexual priests try Catholic Apologetics, Intl website for one. OGE you must not have looked very long, there is another article written by a priest, Fr. Ryan, and many others waiting to be read if you are truly interested. I know you and Eamonn will refute any information that disrupts your belief that priests are speciallly connected to God, which is yet another false teaching so you are both welcome to keep your heads buried in the sand and pretend its not true and stay naive, it is your religious right, however the house of cards is beginning to fall and then how will you deal with it?

[NWScouter]

The ELCA extended to homosexuals in committed relationships the ability to be ordained, anyone straight or gay not married or not in a committed relationship who is not celibate may not be ordain.