The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America New Rule for Pastors

[bacchus]

Wow, this is a hot topic. Deservedly so. The winds of change are working to change our very morals. They are doing this in the name of "progress" or "acceptance" or even "tolerance".

 

I believe we should be tolerant of our friends who act in ways we do not approve. However, we do not need to change the Scout Oath, or to make exceptions to individuals, or large groups, who do not want to follow our standards.

 

Regardless, BSA is going to find itself faced more and more between a rock and hard place as these "winds of change" continue to try to change our moral compass. In the end if the BSA changes these moral standards, it will cause the large religious organizations to leave the BSA and support other causes instead, and will lead to the bankrupting of the scouting program - both fiscal and moral.

[Eamonn]

" however several national studies showed that over 65% of priests interviewed admitted to being openly homosexual, while most of the rest admitted to having homosexual leanings."

I seem to have not seen these National Studies.

Could you tell me where I might find them?

 

I have to admit that I find:

" After all no one religion has an exclusive on getting to heaven, even though the Catholics like to think they do"

Way over the top.

As a Roman Catholic I don't see things the way you state?

Is there a National Study on this as well ?

Eamonn.

[packsaddle]

"The purpose of religion isn't to bring people together."

This evidently may apply to religious organizations like BSA as well.

[bacchus]

"I have to admit that I find:

" After all no one religion has an exclusive on getting to heaven, even though the Catholics like to think they do"

Way over the top."

 

I'm not Catholic but I have to agree. Scouting is one of the few unifying organizations among many religious groups. We should find our similarities here, not snipe at each other.

 

It makes no sense to me why people would advocate "tolerance" by putting down others' beliefs.

[sherminator505]

OK. I'm in.

 

It amazes me that there are some people who are OK with a blanket condemnation of homosexuality as a "lifestyle choice." I have read way too many accounts of gays being harrassed, beated and killed to believe that they are lining up to "choose" that kind of treatment. I also think that if homosexuality were treated as an accident of birth, as I believe it to be, that it would be a lot harder to condemn.

 

I too noticed BadenP's assertions about Catholics. As a former Baptist who has converted, I understand where those assertions come from, but I also realize that they simply aren't true, and I really think that he should learn more about Catholics before he tries to tell us what they (we) believe.

 

Why is it that some of us have this special feeling toward homosexuals? We've finally gotten around to the proposition that integration and women in positions of leadership are okay, but we still have stumbling blocks like this.

 

I have seen some interesting opinions come across these threads since I've been on here (and it hasn't even been a month!). I have seen one Scouter post that if he saw a man that has some feminine characteristics he didn't approve of that he'd be obligated to "take a shot." I have seen another forum member indicate a mistrust of gays and refer to those who object to discrimination of gays as "sympathizers." And I have seen far worse.

 

This is not the type of language we use to describe people we disagree with or even condemn for their "lifestyle choices." This is the language we reserve for people we intensely dislike and would like to go to war with (if we haven't already). I would respectfully suggest that there might be some room for introspection on the part of some fellow forum members.

 

Just a few random observations. Take them as you will.

 

 

[BadenP]

Come on Eamonn are you living in a bubble or what? The Catholic Church has always and still teaches that they are "the one true church and the only road to true salvation." Check you Baltimore Catechism and any encyclical by the current pope.

 

As far as the studies on gay priests research the topic online there are many studies and surveys from a large variety of groups and organizations available. The hypocrisy that has been going on in the Catholic Church is why I chose to leave it after many years Eamonn, I got tired of being an ostrich Catholic (bury my head in the sand, deny what I saw, pretend it was not true,and hope it would go away.) Look at how many large city Archdioceses have gone bankrupt, Boston, Los Angeles,Portland to name just a few. Many Catholics are waking up to the truth as to the falsehood of the Church's infallibility doctrine, which is in direct conflict with the Bible, and are leaving in droves in this country. The Church is in panic, mainly because of the lost revenue. Pope Benedict stated he would rather have a much smaller Church than one filled with those who want the edicts of Vatican II to be followed. Benedict's greatest desire is to return the RC church to its pre 1950 status and get rid of all the teachings and changes of Vatican II, and has stated this publicly and in writing.

 

At least the ELCA is being open about the issue, whereas the Catholic Church threatens their members with eternal damnation if you speak out against them, which is another teaching NOT supported by Scripture. So believe what you want Eamonn, it is a free country.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

sandspur,

 

A minor correction:

 

ELCA = Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

WELCA = Women of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

 

WLCS = Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

 

Boy, those acronyms can really be a problem!

 

ELCA, WLCS and LCMS (The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod) all professing to be of a Lutheran faith but with little commonality in their beliefs and practices.

[John-in-KC]

I'm a member of a Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod parish.

 

The debate you are seeing is a faith matter of orthodoxy/heterodoxy. The question is the purity of the message.

 

I will get ahold of the President of the National Lutheran Association of Scouters, and ask him how we're going to approach this.

 

BTW, the Executive Officer of a Chartered Partner is a no-fee member if he/she does not actively serve Scouting (be a dues-paying volunteer).

[evmori]

I too noticed BadenP's assertions about Catholics. As a former Baptist who has converted, I understand where those assertions come from, but I also realize that they simply aren't true, and I really think that he should learn more about Catholics before he tries to tell us what they (we) believe.

 

What did BadenP post that was not true, sherm?

 

You are right on the money with The Catholic Church has always and still teaches that they are "the one true church and the only road to true salvation."

 

That's what I learned and that is what my mom still believes!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

John (or anyone); does a no-fee member still need to meet the same membership requirements?

[John-in-KC]

Merlyn,

 

I cannot help with that question. Sorry, I just do not know.

[BadenP]

sherm

For your benefit I have a Masters Degree in Theology from Notre Dame and a PHD from Harvard Divinity School, I worked for the Catholic Church for over ten years and was a Catholic for forty years, now do you still want to discuss what I know about the Catholic faith versus your understanding? Everything I stated in this thread can be substantiated by numerous resources and some personal experiences.

[sandspur]

NE-IV-88-Beaver:

 

Thanks, you are of course correct on the acronyms.

 

Baccus:

 

I get your point, but we do not need to change the scout oath, regardless of what we decide.

 

If we retain current policy and practice, no change needed-to state the obvious.

 

However, should scouting someday change its position on gays, still no change is needed in the oath. Why? Because the change is one of interpretation. Morally straight is a general term which leaves a lot of room for individual interpretation.

 

What is morally straight for an Islamic scout, and LDS scout, an ELCA scout or a Catholic scout may not be the same in all areas.

 

So, if BSA were to say the gay issue was one for individual moral convictions not an organization-wide consensus, we are still within the oath.

 

Not trying to be a moral relativist here, just pointing out that the scout oath does not necessarily dictate one approach to this issue.

 

[Hal_Crawford]

"Because the change is one of interpretation. Morally straight is a general term which leaves a lot of room for individual interpretation."

 

I agree. When the Oath was written "straight" was the opposite of crooked just as gay was the opposite of sad.

 

Hal

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

It seems that the question is "Now what the heck do we do, when one of our largest sponsors allows gay pastors".

 

My answer would be for the BSA to do the same thing the BSA did when the Catholic Church was involved in a major scandal over pedophilia - Nothing.

 

My answer would be for the BSA to do the same thing the BSA did when the Mormon Church first started charteing units - much to the very vocal chagrin of many volunteer scouters - Nothing.

 

I doubt that this is going to change anything to any significant degree in the BSA - though at the very least, it should stop the BSA from being hypocritical about who can and can't wear religious awards. Should - but again, as I believe the BSA will do nothing, as it has in the past, then nothing will change.