How far is too far?

[OldGreyEagle]

Perhaps we would be better served if we considered the Content of ones' Charactor rather then their sexuality or theological philosophy when considering them for BSA membership

[SR540Beaver]

OGE,

 

What sport would there be in that?

[packsaddle]

Or we could leave it to the CO to make the decision on whatever basis they want. The church of inclusiveness could admit everyone and the church of universal prejudice could admit no-one. Then the market would take care of things nicely.

[sherminator505]

Makes sense to me.

[Hal_Crawford]

I like the way you put that Packsaddle. Let the market decide. Every conservative on this forum should be willing to go along with that.

[DanKroh]

Pack, of course you are right that trangender and intersex conditions are extremely complicated. Made more so by the interjection of prejudice by people who think they should be able to have a say in how anyone outside of the binary expresses their gender-identity. (Not here, just in general.)

[Trevorum]

Pack, I've never really heard a well articulated objection to that idea. In fact, the only argument I've heard is that some kind of unspecified strife might result at inter-unit events like camporees.

[vol_scouter]

Dan,

 

I think that we are much on the same page. The folks that I term confused are the ones that you talk about in a transition. I would include in that the unfortunate folks who are trying to decide whether they wish to transition. We may quibble about terminology but I think that people who are dealing with significant emotional problems involving not only gender but other issues are best to avoid being a role model for our youth.

 

Where we likely disagree would be where a leader wishes to flaunt either by actions or words sexual orientation, transgender, et cetera issues. As a parent, I would not want to have t explain such issues just as I do not want to have to discuss heterosexual relationships on an outing between two leaders (or more I suppose). Obviously, such things cannot always be avoided but I would still try to avoid those discussions.

 

As to the medical versus psychiatric issues, I believe from my reading and experience that some people are born as one sex but have conditions that are not yet identified that causes them to see themselves as something different. I believe that in the future these condition will be identified. Whether they will be considered pathological or normal variation will likely be determined by all kinds of pressures present at the time they are discovered. That said, I also believe that some individuals act in certain ways for shock value and other psychological issues. In neither case am I making a value judgment as to right or wrong. I have worked hard to become highly educated and with an MD and a technical (not biological) PhD which places me into a small group - that could also be abnormal though I do not see it as bad.

 

Good Scouting!

[DanKroh]

vol_scouter,

 

I agree that we are probably not far off on this subject. I will admit that I probably have a bit of a hair trigger when I start seeing TG people referred to as "confused" because that is often part of the transphobic rhetoric that is used to invalid the medical nature of what TG people are going through. However, I can see that was not your intent.

 

"As to the medical versus psychiatric issues, I believe from my reading and experience that some people are born as one sex but have conditions that are not yet identified that causes them to see themselves as something different. I believe that in the future these condition will be identified. Whether they will be considered pathological or normal variation will likely be determined by all kinds of pressures present at the time they are discovered."

 

Some very preliminary work has been done in this area, and the current theory stemming from that work is that the brains of these individuals develop characteristics of the opposite gender, in utero, most likely due to maternal hormonal influences. But it is merely a theory. Also, there is a distinction between TG and intersex, the latter being people with genetic (kleinfelter, etc) or hormonal (such as AIS) variations that cause their gender to be ambiguous. But both groups are considered to have medical conditions, and are treated as such.

 

"That said, I also believe that some individuals act in certain ways for shock value and other psychological issues."

 

Yes, which is why anyone who wishes to transition must undergo rather intensive psychological evaluation first, before any doctor following the standard of care will begin treatment.

 

Treatment of TG and intersex conditions is a rather specialized field, which the average MD (especially a GP) may not have anything more than a passing familiarity with. So I'm not trying to make any slight on you or your qualifications as an MD, and I apologize if I made it sound that way.

[BulldogBlitz]

let the market decide. they can open up a 'GLT' youth movement call it the rainbow league or whatever floats their boat.

 

since, in an open market, it is competition which rules. walmart sells tons of things, yet there are people who will refuse to shop their as a matter of principle. target and several other stores have walmart to thank for some portion of their client base.

[Trevorum]

Yes. "Let the market decide." Absolutely!

 

Under Local Option, the chartering organization would decide whether to exclude or accept homosexuals and/or atheists. The market would then decide which units would flourish or wither based on their degree of inclusiveness.

[scoutingagain]

" In fact, the only argument I've heard is that some kind of unspecified strife might result at inter-unit events like camporees. "

 

I thought it was the end of the space/time/continuim as we know it.

 

SA

 

 

[NeilLup]

This thread may be much too far gone but kwikadaphoenix asked what I thought was a legitimate question, at least it sounded that way, and it deserves what is, I hope, a legitimate answer.

 

There are some terms that have come into common usage as perjorative terms based on a reference to some socioethnic group. Examples are, and I apologize if my use of the terms as examples offends anyone

 

To "gyp" someone - a perjorative term based on gypsies

 

To "Jew someone down" - a perjorative term meaning to negotiate very hard

 

"Niggardly" - There was an incredible brouhaha about some public official using this term last year even though its derivation is from the Norwegian and has nothing to do with the perjorative term for African-Americans

 

I believe that to call something "gay" fits exactly into this class.

 

What to do? I believe that if one hears a person using a term that clearly is perjorative based on a socioethnic group, one can stop the person saying it and ask "How would a person who is a Jewish, gay, etc. feel about hearing you use that term? How would you think that person would regard you hearing you use that term? You may not care but why ask for trouble for yourself and them if you don't have to?"

 

You don't have to like people who are gay although, quite frankly, you probably do know and like some people who are gay and just don't know that they are. And the "thin entering wedge" argument starting with homosexuality and ending with homosexual necrophilic beastiality and asking "where do you draw the line" has always struck me as a bit specious. As much as anything because one really doesn't start with homosexuality, you start with heterosexual hand holding, go from there and where the line is drawn by each person depending upon their religion, moral beliefs, feelings at the moment, etc.

 

If statistics are accurate and 5-10% of the population is gay, then anyone who is a Scout leader of a unit of 20 boys will, on average, have at least one who will be gay in his adult sexual orientation. We may personally believe that gay behavior is immoral but I hope that nothing we as leaders say or do will make that boy, when he grows up, feel worse about himself or make carving out a meaningful adult life more difficult.

 

We're in this for the kids. Even those who, when they grow up, are gay.

[vol_scouter]

Neil,

 

The numbers are much smaller than is tossed around in the popular press. According to the CDC, male homosexuals in the 'lifestyle' for an extended time make up less than 2% of the population. Apparently, a number of young males 'try out' a homosexual 'lifestyle' which inflates the numbers. Lifestyle is in quotes because I am not trying to imply that it is only a lifestyle choice in all cases because I do not believe that to be the case. Rather it is to be compared to a heterosexual 'lifestyle'. All of that said, the studies are difficult at best but the CDC tends to do a good job so I tend to believe that the actual numbers are much smaller than is often reported.

 

I agree with your advice on perjorative terms. That is a good strategy.

 

Returning to the reason for the post - if the boys do not see the award as something 'manly', most will not wish to wear it. Thus, I believe that clothing, awards, et cetera that do not appear 'manly' are not a good idea.

[Smithgall]

people such as the original poster and some of his more fervant supporters never cease to amaze me. I haver never understood this utter outrage towards gay people. i know so many gay people i could not even count them all. I probabaly no more than that because many people are closeted and would never let on that they were gay. even with such exposure I go to bed everynight with the same woman i started dating when we were 16 and never once think that my marriage or our worls is being threatened by two guys living sharing a life together. you may not like gays and that is your right. in fact i defend your right to have that opinion although i disagree with it. However you must atleast face the fact that the boys in our troops are going to go into a world that is far smaller and far more diverse than it was when we were kids and when our parents were kids. To set them up to hate or to be intolerant is to do a disservice to them.

 

i never expect to change people mind on this issue. Its like abortion its so internalized that people have typically formed an opinion and they will not waiver. But again you should atleast refrain from silly commenst such as uniform being designed by gay people. How ridiculous is that? And incidently you dont have to be a "bleeding heart liberal" to believe that world is made up of many types and that we should be more tolerant