evmori Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Merlyn, You taxes support every church in the city, county & state you live in! And I would bet some of those churches won't let you become a member unless you believe the way they believe! You tax dollars also go to tons of non-profits. Do you know what the policies of everyone of those non-profits is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 You taxes support every church in the city, county & state you live in! Not in the way Philly supports the BSA. While I do think churches should be treated like any other non-profit, being tax-exempt is not the same as renting public property at subsidized rates. Ed, why not whine to Philadelphia? They're the ones who ended the lease, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HICO_Eagle Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 You taxes support every church in the city, county & state you live in! Whoa! This is the same major fallacy that half the country appears to labor under. Your taxes do not support an organization simply because they are tax-exempt. Taxpayer funds are NOT expended on them, ergo there is no tax support. This is directly analogous to President Obama's proposal to cap tax deductions for charitable giving, saying "it's not fair" that someone who makes more money gets to deduct "more" for giving the same amount. You are taxed on the portion of your income that exceeds various expenses acknowledged by law. One of these expenses has been donations to registered eligible organizations regardless of political, religious or other affiliation (as long as their actions comply with the law). Your statement, like President Obama's proposal, seems to assume that all your money belongs to the State except what they allow you to keep so anything you aren't taxed on equates to tax support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Me, I confess. I'm a carper. At least I think so. I could be wrong. I was in a minority view during the years when I worked to promote civil rights. And the minority forced itself on the majority. We won! And now I feel so....guilty. Of course if I'm NOT really a carper, someone please tell what I need to do to get that label slapped on me. OK, I'm sitting here, bored, watching students take one of my finals. I'm allowed to have a little fun, right? Another hour to go, yawn. Oops, just read HICO's post: if that's so then churches etc. need to pay for the services they get at taxpayer expense. I'm all for elimination of ALL tax deductions and going for the Fair Tax. That will eliminate a lot of those freeloading organizations or else make them pay as they go.(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Not in the way Philly supports the BSA. While I do think churches should be treated like any other non-profit, being tax-exempt is not the same as renting public property at subsidized rates. What's the difference? Whoa! This is the same major fallacy that half the country appears to labor under. Your taxes do not support an organization simply because they are tax-exempt. Taxpayer funds are NOT expended on them, ergo there is no tax support. Wanna bet! If churches paid taxes on their property & buildings, your taxes would be lower. Churches are entitled to and get the same services individual get. While our individual taxes aren't allocated directly to churches, our taxes do help pay for the public services they receive. So your tazxes do help support churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Not in the way Philly supports the BSA. While I do think churches should be treated like any other non-profit, being tax-exempt is not the same as renting public property at subsidized rates. What's the difference? For one difference, Philly has a limited amount of property to lease, so they can't offer an arbitrary number of leases to all comers. But there's no limit to the number of non-profit organizations that can form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vol_scouter Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Packsaddle, Hopefully all your students did well and learned the subject! I believe that the Fair Tax is a sales tax only. So churches, businesses, etc. would have no national tax burden. Those who earn more and consume more, pay more. Except for the poor for essentials like food, there are no deductions. It will never pass because congress could no longer give tax breaks to friends - the businesses wouldn't need them and their would be none for individuals. Congress would lose to much power. Also, when congress increased the sales tax it would affect everyone so they would be reticent to do so - probably good for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GernBlansten Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 If I'm not mistaken, churches pay no property taxes. Property taxes are used to provide public services like police, fire and local government. Churches use those resources but don't pay for them. Churches are getting a free ride on those who have to pay property taxes. So yes, I agree with both Ed and Merlyn. BSA got a real sweet deal with the city, but all churches do too. Personally, I'd like to see nobody get sweet deals on my tax coin. Pay your fair share, I don't care who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 The Fair Tax is not exactly a sales tax although it is often described in those terms. If you don't consume, you don't pay. However, it is a tax that is embedded in the price of any good or service, not tacked on afterwards. The value is taxed as the good is produced, and recovered through the sale. Anyone, churches, businesses, charities, everyone who ever purchases anything, books, paper, a new sanctuary, would pay this imbedded tax on whatever they purchased. There is a 'prebate' to take care of those below the poverty level. Take a look at this: http://www.fairtax.org This does away with the IRS, and a huge amount of wasteful bureaucracy, not to mention essentially putting tax policy in the hands of individuals rather than politicians. Loopholes would be gone. Each person would be paid with no withholding and if they didn't purchase anything they wouldn't pay any tax. It is a 'fair' way for people to take control through their day-to-day commerce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWScouter Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Here in Washington State, the State Constitution in Section 11 states in part: No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or the support of any religious establishment. This is a stronger separation of church and state than the US Constitution, While our state as well as other states give tax exceptions to church property it does the same for any non-profit be it the Little League Field, Hospital, Masonic Temple or animal welfare society. The reason that the state does so that it demeans that provide a public services that offsets the loss of revenue and is a net gain to the public welfare, but it is strong in it refusal to provide direct money or lose income due to rents or fees waived or lowered to religious groups. The real kicker to the argument is while weather you agree or not that the BSA is discriminates against atheists, the BSA is a religious organization by its own statements. Now I do not know what Pennsylvania law state, I would guess that if any organization would give the city a better deal than a $1 a year, then the fiduciary responsibility of the city council would in my mind be a no brainer. As for being a disparager, the goals and method of leadership development and civic responsibility has been and should be the lasting effect of Scouting which I agree with whole hardly. The issue of adult leadership, except for child safety, and religious belief should belong to the local charter partner as it is now unofficially in many council with the dont ask dont tell, wink, wink.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 You're gonna have to do better than that Merlyn! That's weak! NWScouter, So what happens if there is a crime committed at a church? The police won't show up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rythos Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Not if the Archdiocese decides it not really a crime but more of a spiritual problem, and conceals it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Forgive me, but I have to "... This is a stronger separation of church and state than the US Constitution," Has to be correct as the separation of church and state in not found in the US Constitution Just keeping it real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 OGE, I hope you also agree there's no "right to a fair trial" or "separation of powers" in the US constitution, because those exact phrases don't occur, either. But those concepts, including separation of church & state, ARE found in the US constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Separation of Church and State is in the Constitution? Now, we are not taking the Bill of Rights, the first 10 amendments, right? Where in the original text of the constitution is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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