The American heartland

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, marriage has been considered a right since Loving v. Virginia in 1967 and the current president's parents could finally be recognized as married in every US state*.

 

*Though they were divorced by then(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[GernBlansten]

I think the "right" thing comes from equal treatment under the law. You can't have one set of laws/benefits/penalties for one segment of the population and another set for another segment. You have a right to that.

[evmori]

Yeah Trevorum I guess that is what I am asking. Is it a right or a privledge?

[packsaddle]

I was a scout in the 1960s in Charlotte, NC. Integration was highly sensitive because Judge McMillan ruled that we would begin the large-scale integration of schools for the country. I remember a black troop showing up at a Scout Exposition. I remember leaders for some troops deciding to pack up and leave. I remember BSA professionals lamenting the sad situation with those leaders...and then lamenting the other side with mine. BSA wasn't exactly a monument to courage.

If the organization is a money whore, it will continue to make decisions on that basis. But for practical purposes, local option already exists and BSA seems to be acting with the same moral compass it had in the 1960s.

[Kahuna]

>>I wonder if that is true. BSA maintained segregated scout camps in the south into the sixties.

[Hal_Crawford]

"I have many donors in my FOS list that give to the BSA only because it does not allow homosexual scouts or scouters."

 

Vol:

I hope that is not true. I hope that people base their donations to scouting because of what it provides rather than who it excludes. If their giving is based solely on exclusion then they should give their money to the Klan or some other hate group. I would hope that the donate to scouts because of the activities, the leadership and the service to the community.

 

If I thought that our number one reason for being is to exclude gays then I would quit this organization in a New York minute and never look back.

 

Hal

[Trevorum]

Hal,

In point of fact, we don't "exclude gays", we just talk about it loudly to discourage them from trying to join, and now and then we publicly kick somebody out.

[Trevorum]

Ed,

I've always assumed that - for adults - marriage is a fundamental human right and NOT a privilege granted by the state. Indeed, I believe that to be one of the basic themes of literature. As such, the state does not have the power to regulate it except for human health and safety issues (eg., blood tests, incest restrictions, etc.)

 

 

(This message has been edited by Trevorum)

[Hal_Crawford]

I stand corrected. BSA only excludes "avowed" gays. As long as they know their place (in the closet) they are welcome to join. Again, I hope that this position is not the principle reason why people support scouting.

 

 

[vol_scouter]

Hal,

 

You might be turning in your membership card. Many see the BSA as one of the few institutions standing up for its values in the culture war. There are many who participate in FOS because of the perceived leading role that the BSA is playing. It is not fair to equate these people with the KKK. Segregation has no true Biblical basis though some made tortured arguments to attempt to justify. Most people realized that the arguments were false. Homosexuality is a different issue. The Bible is clear on the issue. So for a Jew or Christian who believe in the teachings of the Torah or Bible, homosexuality is wrong. Therefore, they cannot support acceptance of homosexuality. Tolerance could be considered required at the same time for Christians which is clearly the state of the majority. It is unfortunate for the BSA that it has been placed in the center of the culture war. The result has been that homosexual groups are determined to force the BSA to change or be destroyed which has made others who are the largest supporters of the BSA more determined that there will be no changes. My region is clearly on the conservative side of the culture war. If the BSA were to make a change in their stance, the result would be devastating. If a change to local control was seen to be bowing to those pressures, the result would likely be devastating. Many scouters would leave as well as charter organizations terminating the charters.

[vol_scouter]

I just saw the cover of Newsweek - the culture wars are likely to become more contentious rather than cool down. Judges using tortured logic to require homosexual marriage and legislatures defying the will of the majority of the citizens cannot continue without a backlash. The First Amendment to the US Constitution is interpreted only along the lines of the non-establishment clause while the free exercise clause is trampled. These are issues that will not change easily and there will be much gnashing of teeth as minorities continue to dictate what the values of the majority will be.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

vol_scouter writes:

Homosexuality is a different issue. The Bible is clear on the issue.

 

I disagree; the bible is not clear on the issue, and difference Christian sects have widely different opinions.

 

Judges using tortured logic to require homosexual marriage and legislatures defying the will of the majority of the citizens cannot continue without a backlash.

 

Identical to the situation when interracial marriages were made legal by the courts.

 

The First Amendment to the US Constitution is interpreted only along the lines of the non-establishment clause while the free exercise clause is trampled.

 

There are no free exercise issues raised by having the government recognize a same-sex marriage contract. Having government-recognized divorce for decades has never e.g. required the Catholic church to recognize a civil divorce, or marry a divorcee that the church considers already married.

[evmori]

OK Trevorum, I'll agree marriage is a right. But by not allowing same sex marriage is that denying a right? Brothers & sisters are not allowed to marry. Are they also denied the same right?

 

Yeah Merlyn, the Bible is clear on the issue. Wanna quote chapter & verse where it isn't?(This message has been edited by evmori)

[GernBlansten]

Yeah Ed, but where in the Good Book does it ban cousins from marrying, or siblings or polygamy? I never did understand who Cane and Able married.

So if we are going to base who can marry who on the Bible, not sure if that will be consistent.

 

Many states do allow cousins to marry, but on the condition of genetic counseling. Same should be true for siblings. Heck, as far as I'm concerned, two consenting adults who want to get married should be allowed to. But if there are health concerns like genetically mutations, then at least the couples should be aware of it. It is a free country, last I checked.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Like I said Ed, since different sects of Christianity don't agree, that means it isn't clear.