Defending the Scout Oath

[vol_scouter]

horizon,

 

I do not know about the other denominations but I am a Methodist and I can say that the church is not likely to change its' position. The Methodist church has a conference every few years where the liberal older more powerful ministers push the issue. The younger ministers are afraid of retribution and remain silent. However, unlike many churches, the governing conference for Methodists has a vote of the clergy and a vote of the laity. The lay members, despite ministers trying to pick the delegates, have always been overwhelmingly opposed to defying the bible and making homosexuality 'OK'. So I doubt that the Methodist church will change anytime soon.

 

My other point is that even if churches change their stance, it does not make it right. If one is Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, the Bible and Koran are very clear in condemning homosexuality. So that makes churches that accept homosexual behavior apostate. The Episcopal church did that with the result that it has lost a large number of members and the Anglican church is growing rapidly. Too often it is a vocal minority who want such changes not the majority.

 

As to the original thread, I share some of your feelings though in a different direction. I believe that we should better enforce the other points in the law. The BSA has interpreted the requirements as they wish and have the right to do so. However, I have a problem with seeing and obviously unfit boy obtaining Eagle or a boy who brags at meetings about smoking, drinking, and sex. It is sometimes difficult in the second case in our legalistic society to deny advancement but none the less, I think that it should be better enforced.

 

As to the BSA enforcing the openly homosexual ban because the largest member groups have that belief, that is just a form of democracy. I live in the south which has a lot of scouts. If the BSA were to change its stance, many churches would drop their charter almost immediately and many board members would resign.

 

Homosexuality does occur in all cultures and in that in could be considered part of the diversity of people. However, it is not natural in the since that it does not lead to procreation. Also, it is for male homosexuals an unhealthy lifestyle. There are many health problems related to homosexual lifestyles that predate AIDS.

[evmori]

I don't think any denomination has closed their doors to homosexuals. All are allowed to attend services! Membership is different.

[aquaticeagle]

"Hmm, so if it not dangerous in your mind, it is OK for the rest of us? That's scary." - Eagledad

 

Where did I say anything about what is dangerous in someone's mind? I said if it harms other people then it is not right. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

"You just dont want to make the effort to find a youth scouting program that agrees with your values, so you are stomping your feet acting self righteous." - Eagledad

 

No, I grew up with the BSA values that are taught. I observed them and lived by them for almost 20 years because I didn't know about the ugly side of the BSA. The side that contradicts its own teachings has only recently shown itself to me. The values I grew up with are the following BSA values quoted from BSA material:

 

". . . I will do my best . . .

 

Try hard to live up to the points of the Scout Oath. Measure your achievements against your own high standards and don't be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do."

 

". . . To do my duty to God . . .

 

...You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs."

 

". . . To keep myself physically strong, . . .

 

Take care of your body so that it will serve you well for an entire lifetime. That means eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep, and exercising regularly to build strength and endurance. it also means avoiding harmful drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and anything else that can harm your health."

 

". . . and morally straight.

 

To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance."

 

Those values teach one thing but it's obvious now that those teachings mean nothing. Explain to me how kicking out open gays agrees with "Measure your achievements against your own high standards and don't be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do." What about "by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs. And finally, does this "To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people" agree with kicking out gays? It says here that I should be honest and open with people. That's wrong because if you are open about your sexual preference, you get kicked out. It also says not to be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do. That's certainly not accurate because the BSA teaches that you can feel whatever you want, as long as you keep it to yourself because it's not accepted by your peers.

 

"Moral Role modeling is important for some of us and a gay lifestyle is not a lifestyle I want our youth to think is normal or beneficial for healthy family environment." - Eagledad

 

It's sad. Many people still think that being black is not something they want their kids to think is normal or beneficial for a healthy family environment.

[Hal_Crawford]

Aquaticeagle:

Well said.

Hal

[Eagledad]

>>It's sad. Many people still think that being black is not something they want their kids to think is normal or beneficial for a healthy family environment.>Barry, generally only the agrarian monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) view homosexuality as a sin. Most of the other religions in the world are more tolerant of such naturally occurring human diversity

[DanKroh]

vol_scouter opines: "Homosexuals are the ones who abuse children of the same sex unless the crime is one of control (power or authority). Sometimes it can be difficult to distinguish between a crime of homosexual lust versus one of heterosexual control.

 

From my reading, homosexuals are much more likely to abuse children of their same sex just as heterosexuals are much more likely to abuse children of the opposite sex."

 

 

No, no, no, no. Read some research, please. Pedophiles (men) who abuse children of the same sex (boys) are attracted to the feminine qualities of the pre-pubescent children because the men are heterosexual. Which is one of the reasons why pedophilia by straight women is practically unheard of; female sexual offenders virtually always involve boys who are past puberty, at which point it is ephebophilia.

 

Please stop spreading misinformation.

[aquaticeagle]

Actually it is the same thing. It is discrimination. Taking away the rights of people that are out to do no harm to anyone else is discrimination whether it be about race, ethnicity or sexual preference.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eagledad writes:

Trev, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are over 90% of the world.

 

No, just over half (and Judaism is very small).

[GernBlansten]

And potentially declining.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20090310/cm_csm/yspencer

[Eagledad]

>>Taking away the rights of people that are out to do no harm to anyone else is discrimination whether it be about race, ethnicity or sexual preference

[aquaticeagle]

"Homosexuality is harmful to the family structure."

 

How so? Because the kids will grow up outside of a box and will learn that the world is not Pleasantville? I can pretty much guarantee you that alcoholic or drug-abusing parents and parents who die at an early age from lung cancer have a much greater impact on a childhood than a child being raised by two women or two men.

 

Do you have any support for your statement that homosexuality is harmful to the family structure? Please provide it if you do.

[GernBlansten]

I think he is referring to when one finds they have a homosexual in their family, they have no choice but to shun them. That destroys the structure of the family.

[DanKroh]

"Do you have any support for your statement that homosexuality is harmful to the family structure? Please provide it if you do."

 

Careful, aquaticeagle. If you don't qualify that request, you are going to get a list of articles from discredited "psychologists" who use questionable research methods (or outright twist the research results of others), to support their faith-driven agenda.

[evmori]

Homosexuality is harmful to the family structure.

 

I think he is referring to when one finds they have a homosexual in their family, they have no choice but to shun them. That destroys the structure of the family.

 

Shunning them is NOT the only choice!

 

I think what is being referred to is the inability of homosexual couples to procreate within their relationship.

[aquaticeagle]

"I think he is referring to when one finds they have a homosexual in their family, they have no choice but to shun them. That destroys the structure of the family."

 

That may be true but if that is his point, I don't see how it's relevant. Why should bigoted family members be reason enough to discriminate against an entire group of people? People are shunned by their families for many reasons that have nothing to do with sexual preference. Children are shunned for not taking over the family business, dating outside of race, etc.

 

"Careful, aquaticeagle. If you don't qualify that request, you are going to get a list of articles from discredited "psychologists" who use questionable research methods (or outright twist the research results of others), to support their faith-driven agenda."

 

Good point. Eagledad I'd love to see support of your claim that is not affiliated with religion but science. I'd like to see support from credited and respected scientists that publish their work and has been verified by other credible scientists.