Defending the Scout Oath

[scoutldr]

"I've had some of each. Haven't been harmed"

 

That's what my Dad used to say...then he got lung cancer and was dead in 6 months at age 69. Never got to see his grandkids grow up and be successful young businessmen.

 

"The scouts are not allowed to pick and choose which parts of the Oath and Law they want to live by so why is the BSA organization?"

 

And if the BSA moved to strict enforcement, many of us would be gone. The reality is, BSA has no choice...their strings are being pulled by very large and very rich outside organizations.

 

 

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

On my honor, I will do my best...

 

That there is the key.

 

In regards to Duty to God, there is no try, only do, or do not. You can't just do your best.

 

As for duty to self, there is only try. Just look at all the obese scouts and scouters that are still allowed to be members.

 

The hypocrisy is not that BSA has membership restrictions based on the oath, its that the components of the oath are not equally applied.

[aquaticeagle]

I agree GernBlansten. The hypocrisy problem is the unequal treatment enforcement of the Oath.

 

"And if the BSA moved to strict enforcement, many of us would be gone. The reality is, BSA has no choice...their strings are being pulled by very large and very rich outside organizations."

 

They do have a choice. They could set the example as a leading youth organization. I don't want the BSA to kick out smokers or those who drink alcohol because I don't think that those things make someone a bad person. But if they are going to kick out gays because of a very ambiguous definition and allow smokers and drinkers to remain members regardless of a very specific definition, something is wrong there.

[TheScout]

So they should take the alcohol and tobacco part out of the physically strong part.

 

Then would you be happy keeping the gays out?

[SR540Beaver]

aquaticeagle,

 

Let me preface my comments by saying that I have a sister who is a lesbian and one of my best friends is gay. I love them both dearly as they are wonderful people.

 

Now with that being said, I support the ban on gays based on protection issues. Protection for the youth and the gay adult. Before I get accused of it, no I do not equate homosexuality with pedophilia. I was once a youth with a wonderful youth minister that I idolized. One night at church summer camp, he decided to attempt groping me. I told him NO and it stopped then and there. Come to find out years later, rumors had follwed him at each church he worked at. He moved out of state after my church to the town where my gay best friend lived. My friend worked in the hotel industry and told me how my former youth minister used to troll the hotels in town looking for action.

 

Is this the behavior of all gay men? No, it isn't. But, do you want to play the odds with your child? Do you also want to play the odds with your gay friends and the accusations that could be made against them?

 

Based on my own personal experience, I fully support the ban on gay leaders in scouting. It is the prudent thing to do.

[aquaticeagle]

I will never be happy about ANYBODY being excluded from the BSA. I think everyone should have the opportunities that Boy Scouts have because I know that those opportunities made me what I am today.

 

Taking the alcohol and tobacco part out of the "physically fit" part would definitely make the BSA seem less hypocritical.

 

When you get down to it though, I think that the physically fit and morally straight parts of the Oath are defined just fine. I think scouts should avoid smoking or drinking as best they can. I also think that as "morally straight" is defined by the Boy Scouts is perfectly fine. That definition is here:

 

"To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance."

 

Nowhere in that definition does it say anything about being "sexually straight".

[TheScout]

Thats not being clean in your actions.

 

And nobody should ge kept out of the BSA?

 

Nobody? There are bad people out there. Perhaps you should rethink that statement.

[aquaticeagle]

"Is this the behavior of all gay men? No, it isn't. But, do you want to play the odds with your child? Do you also want to play the odds with your gay friends and the accusations that could be made against them?"

 

Anyone who puts their child into ANY youth organization with ANY adult leadership is playing the odds. Where is the research done that says that the odds of your child encountering a pedophile are any higher with a gay adult than with a straight one? If that research doesn't exist or says otherwise then that argument has no substance. The odds of molestation or abuse are not any higher with gay adults than they are with straight adults. Until I see some research stating otherwise, I won't be convinced otherwise. Have you seen any research done in this area?

[GernBlansten]

BSA is inconsistant on the gay issue too. You must be avowed. They never say you can't be gay. So all the closeted or celebate homosexuals are just fine, just don't come out and be avowed.

So to say the BSA excludes homosexuals is not accurate. They walk amounst us. Camp with us.

 

SR540beaver, do you also support banning women from BSA since they would have the same issues a homosexual male might? Of course I'm not saying all women are pedophiles, but the news if full of stories of female school teachers molesting young men.

[eagle77]

Aquiticeagle,

If you take a good look at who sponsors a good amount of scout packs, troops, and crews you will see they are churches or other religious groups. Allow homosexuals into scouting and a good amount of them will say good bye to scouting. Pure and simple.

[aquaticeagle]

What is not clean about being a homosexual? How is it any less clean than being straight?

 

The BSA conducts criminal and background checks for a reason. Of course people who harm others in any way should not be allowed to participate in youth organizations but that is simply because they bring harm to others. A person does not harm others by being homosexual.

 

By excluding gays the BSA is telling the youth of America that it is not okay to be yourself and be true to your heart.

[aquaticeagle]

You're right Gern and I feel the same way about that as I do about the "Don't ask don't tell" policy of the US military. That's ridiculous. As I said before, that is only teaching children that it's okay to lie to themselves and others and deny their true personality.

[SR540Beaver]

aquaticeagle - "Have you seen any research done in this area?"

 

Perhaps you missed the part where I said "based on my personal experience". It is kind of like touching a hot pan. I don't need a study in order to know not to touch it again after being burned once. I will warn others about the heat so they can avoid being burned too. A straight man has never tried to grope me. A gay man has. He didn't target the girls in our youth group. He targeted the boys. I would not support him being a scout leader.......based on MY personal experience.

[DanKroh]

"But, do you want to play the odds with your child?"

 

Nope, but since the majority of men who molest young boys are straight, I think we should ban all the straight leaders.

 

"Do you also want to play the odds with your gay friends and the accusations that could be made against them?"

 

No more than I want to see my straight friends accused, which is much more likely.

 

"Based on my own personal experience, I fully support the ban on gay leaders in scouting. It is the prudent thing to do."

 

Ok, well since my own personal experience with this issue involved straight men, I fully support a ban on straight leaders in scouting. It's the prudent thing to do.

 

Oh wait, that's why we have all these safeguards in place. Youth protection training for both youth and adults. Two-deep leadership. No one-on-one contact. Well, there are no gay men allowed in scouting, so I suppose all that is completely unnecessary, no?

 

Beaver, have you considered what exactly about their victims pedophiles are attracted to? Their manly chest hair? Their deep voices and overdeveloped pecs? No, they are attracted to the *feminine* qualities of pre-pubescent boys. Because they are *straight*. Gay men are attracted to male qualities.

 

As I've said before, if you define all same-sex molestation as being performed by homosexuals, then only homosexuals will be doing the molesting. However, the research does not support that little exercise in sophistry.

[TheScout]

A lot of people just don't like homosexuality and don't like to be around homosexuals.