Pro-choice quandary

[Beavah]

When Jesus consecrated the Apostles with the Holy Orders he gave them the same power to pass it down. Through Apostolic Succession, Peter passed his special authority down to others, who continue, guided by the Holy Spirit to be the Head of the Church on Earth to this day.

 

So you claim. I'm left wonderin' how Peter and all the rest passed their special authority down to others when they were already dead at the time their supposed successors were chosen. And I'm still wonderin' why Pope Benedict can't tell a crippled man to "get up and walk!" the way Peter did if his special authority was really passed down.

 

Clearly Jesus meant there to be one Earthly head on the Church. Why would he want this to be only a temporary feature? It should exist for all time. Remember he gave Peter the keys so Hell can not prevail against us. Why would he want Hell to win after Peter's death?

 

And here I thought you believed in the communion of saints, the resurrection of the body, and life everlastin'. Are yeh now saying that St. Peter is truly gone after his death? That prayin' to St. Peter for his help and intervention doesn't work?

 

And are yeh truly making the claim that all da popes have been so inspired by the Spirit that they must end up with St. Peter in heaven, or are yeh agreeing with Dante that there are popes in hell? Which certainly wouldn't make 'em true successors to St. Peter, eh?

 

Fact of course is there were initially five patriarchs ... in Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, three of which (Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome) were considered Sees of St. Peter. So I reckon honesty demands that we note from the earliest days of Christendom it was not at all clear that Jesus meant there to be only one human head, eh? More likely, we silly humans got that notion from the Empire, not from God.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[TheScout]

"So you claim. I'm left wonderin' how Peter and all the rest passed their special authority down to others when they were already dead at the time their supposed successors were chosen."

 

Pope's don't choose their successors. The Holy Spirt guides the College of Cardinals to find out who the next Pope shall be.

 

"And here I thought you believed in the communion of saints, the resurrection of the body, and life everlastin'. Are yeh now saying that St. Peter is truly gone after his death?"

 

The Church still needs an Earthly head.

 

"And are yeh truly making the claim that all da popes have been so inspired by the Spirit?"

 

Yes.

 

"Fact of course is there were initially five patriarchs ... in Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, three of which (Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome) were considered Sees of St. Peter. So I reckon honesty demands that we note from the earliest days of Christendom it was not at all clear that Jesus meant there to be only one human head, eh? More likely, we silly humans got that notion from the Empire, not from God."

 

Jesus appointed one head among his apostles. Not five. Peter was the Bishop of Rome. Most Christians accept the primacy of the Bishop of Rome in some form or another, even Anglicans and Orthodox Christians.

[Beavah]

Pope's don't choose their successors.

 

Yah, but didn't you say "Peter passed his special authority down to others" ? If Peter didn't choose his successor, how did he pass his authority down after he was dead and gone? And then we still have that pesky "get up and walk!" problem.

 

The Church still needs an Earthly head.

 

Why? Is God so limited that he cannot achieve our salvation without the help of a human princeling / avatar/ pharaoh here on earth? I always thought that Jesus was enough.

 

And didn't the Lord himself say to the apostles including Peter "Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them." - Matthew 18:19.

 

Sure sounds like Jesus wasn't trustin' the power of special commission to any one apostle, eh? It needed two or three. And if yeh read anything of the gospels, the Lord sure didn't make Peter infallible.

 

And are yeh truly making the claim that all da popes have been so inspired by the Spirit that they must end up with St. Peter in heaven? Yes.

 

Yah, then why has your church been so remiss that it has not canonized all of the popes as saints, eh? In fact, it seems that quite a few of 'em haven't merited that recognition. Indeed, only 2 in the last 750 years have become canonically recognized for their holiness. That Dante was a smart fellow and an honest poet, eh?

 

Peter was the Bishop of Rome.

 

Yah, Peter was also the bishop of Antioch and Alexandria, eh? That's why they're called Petrine Sees. And the notion of da Roman episcopate bein' universal came from da declaration of a Roman Emperor around 600AD. I suppose he was also given keys and a special commission by the Holy Spirit?

 

You're a bright lad. Doesn't all that dogmatic assertion seem a bit far fetched to yeh? Perhaps the truth, if it is there, is more subtle and nuanced and Godly than some silly notion of earthly and human authority.

 

I don't reckon that the Roman Catholic Church itself really believes things in quite the light that you claim, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[pinkflame]

To further muddy the ecumenical waters, I recall from my famly members of the Church of Christ persuation that they belive that Peter is the rock upon which the Chuurch of Christ is founded and that all other denominations (including the big one out of Rome) are inauthentic. They do not consider themselves Protestants but instead see themselves as the original. Funny how so many different well-meaning Christians in so many different groups can use scripture to divide instead of unite

[packsaddle]

(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[TheScout]

"If Peter didn't choose his successor, how did he pass his authority down after he was dead and gone? And then we still have that pesky "get up and walk!" problem."

 

Of course Peter himself doesn't actually pass down the authority. It is God's authority. The authority comes due to being his successor in his high office. There is no get up and walk problem. Peter was not able to act like Jesus. The Holy Spirit the guides the Popes likewise chooses how to aid the Popes.

 

"The Church still needs an Earthly head."

 

"Why? Is God so limited that he cannot achieve our salvation without the help of a human princeling / avatar/ pharaoh here on earth? I always thought that Jesus was enough."

 

Cause Jesus wanted the Church to have an Earthly head and with the aid of the Holy Spirit interpret his work and the scriptures for mankind."

 

"Lord sure didn't make Peter infallible."

 

You don't understand that doctrine then. The Pope or even the Church is not infallible in all cases.

 

"Yah, then why has your church been so remiss that it has not canonized all of the popes as saints, eh? In fact, it seems that quite a few of 'em haven't merited that recognition. Indeed, only 2 in the last 750 years have become canonically recognized for their holiness."

 

Because the necesary requirements were not met?

 

"Yah, Peter was also the bishop of Antioch and Alexandria, eh? That's why they're called Petrine Sees. And the notion of da Roman episcopate bein' universal came from da declaration of a Roman Emperor around 600AD. I suppose he was also given keys and a special commission by the Holy Spirit?"

 

Peter was the Bishop of Rome last. Thats he died and was marytered. Its not just Catholics who recognize the primacy of that Bishop. Even Anglicans and Orthodox Christians do. Most Christians do.

 

I am not sure what Roman declaration you speak of? Accoding to most the Roman Empire fell in 476. Maybe you are referring to the Byzantines. Though they called themselves the Roman Empire most people today call them the Byzantines to avoid confusion.

 

 

"You're a bright lad. Doesn't all that dogmatic assertion seem a bit far fetched to yeh?."

 

No.

 

"I don't reckon that the Roman Catholic Church itself really believes things in quite the light that you claim, eh?"

 

In what way?

[Beavah]

Yah, I think the point has been made, eh?

 

Nowhere does Jesus establish an "office" with monarchical "succession" to "interpret his work or the scriptures" and then establish it because Peter was there last (why not the first church Peter founded?). No reading of the scriptures could possibly come to the conclusion that that's how God works in the world.

 

And certainly not so a childless man can pass judgment excluding the mother from the sacraments of Christ for makin' the hard decision to save the life of her innocent 9-year-old girl.

 

Shepherds and carpenters and prophets and fishermen challenging the authority of the earthly are where we find the true hand of God. You know. In compassion and love.

 

Happily, the Catholic Church's teachings are far more subtle and intelligent than all that. While I still disagree with 'em and think that bishop in Brazil is an imbecile who will answer to his Lord one day, the Catholic notion of Church as I understand it really is far more Christian than you portray. The real authorities have rarely been da popes. They've been the poor faithful. Francis, and Thomas, and Theresa, and Ignatius and their lot. If there has been any small wisdom at all from those who have occupied the Roman See it has been not to stand too long in the way when God really spoke infallibly through his Church. Or at least to come around kickin' and screamin' eventually.

 

Your homework is to read Gaudium et Spes.

 

Beavah

 

[TheScout]

"No reading of the scriptures could possibly come to the conclusion that that's how God works in the world."

 

As all Protestants you focus on the scriptures too much (Which you don't have the authority to interpret) and ignore the tradition that the Church has also harbored as part of the deposit of faith.

 

"And certainly not so a childless man can pass judgment excluding the mother from the sacraments of Christ for makin' the hard decision to save the life of her innocent 9-year-old girl."

 

And who better to make such decisions than the Pope? This one in particular is a very educated and learned theologian.

 

"think that bishop in Brazil is an imbecile"

 

What a very rude thing to say. Where is the respect to such a high office?

 

Your homework is to read the history of the Roman Empire and let me know how it was doing in 600?

 

 

[pinkflame]

How exactly is it possibe to focus too much on the Word of God?

 

As for interpretation and the way to a relationship with God, that whole thing that happened at Easter with Jesus is the way God made the way for me, a sinner, to have a direct relationship with His Son and, through Him, to God the Father.

 

As for venial sin making me less worthy of God's help, as a sinner I am COMPLETELY unworthy of God's help and only by His grace and mercy am I saved (or helped in all those mundane things of life). At least, that's the Protestant take.

[evmori]

As all Protestants you focus on the scriptures too much (Which you don't have the authority to interpret) and ignore the tradition that the Church has also harbored as part of the deposit of faith.

 

How can you focus too much on the Scriptures? The Scripture is the Word of God! And anyone can interpret it! You don't need a to be a priest or pastor or bishop or scholar! And when you start putting the traditions ahead of the Word of God you end up with man made barriers to the Word of God.

 

Change that light bulb?? Why?? My father put that light bulb in! Change??

[OldGreyEagle]

While the Bible is open for all to read, it is sometimes a good idea to visit with those who have not only studied the Bible, but also the historical times and customs. Without background information of the Culture and Society, the story of the Good Sammaritan loses some of its impact. The woman who Jesus talked to at the well, in the heat of the day is far more compelling when you realize it was quite unusual to get water from the well in the middle of the day due to the heat

 

One can certainly learn much from the Bible from a solo read, much may also be read from the Bible with someone who has studied it and the times as well.

 

On a different note, my brother is learning to read Ancient Greek, he wants to read the scriptures in their original, or as close to original form as he can without centuries of bowdlerized content

[packsaddle]

I've tried everything I can but I can't get this site to display the Greek alphabet. I tried.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[OldGreyEagle]

Pack, you did see that was my brother, who lives in Illinois who is learning Greek, not me as all foreign languages except some Latin is Greek to me

 

I can' make my keyboard do Greek, but do you know what this phrase means? I will do it in phonentic spelling. I learned it not long ago, its the only Greek sentence I know

 

Tha Fas Ksilo

 

well that and Kyrie Eleison and its counterpart Christe Eleison

 

well maybe its not all Greek to me afterall

[packsaddle]

I lack the necessary gut symbionts to be a good termite.