The whole Mormon thing - prop 8 in CA

[gpraceman2]

Now, I thought, this being a scout related site, that people would actually be concerned about protecting our children from sexual predators. I guess I was wrong. No wonder such laws pass. You can surely expect people to try to pass similar laws in other states.

[DanKroh]

"And your point about being knocked down over time, sadly may be true. Subgroups of the Anti-8 crowd are gaining acceptance, and soon "anything goes" will be acceptable (and legal). Here comes NAMBLA and God only know what else."

 

Ahh, the slippery slope fallacy. When all else fails, pull out the NAMBLA boogieman. Sorry, but we've had same-sex marriage in Mass for 5 years now, and there still aren't people trying to marry pets or group marriages. Nor has fire and brimstone rained down from the sky.

 

"In other words, anyoneregardless of their biological identitywill be welcome in the mens or ladies room, including cross-dressers, men who self-identify as women, women who self-identify as men, and people who havent made up their minds."

 

Just for your edification, here is the correct terminology:

men who self-identify as women = transwomen, transgender women, or MTF (male-to-female transgender people)

women who self-identify as men = transmen, transgender men, or FTM (female-to-male transgender people)

 

"Do you not think that sexual predators will use this new law to their advantage?"

 

Yeah, because people who are going into a bathroom to break the law are really going to be concerned that they aren't breaking the law by going into the wrong bathroom....

 

Again, we've had laws like this in Boston for years, and have not seen any evidence of "sexual predators using this law to their advantage".

[urloony]

Just few clarifying points.

-Men and Women serve missions in the LDS church

-It is inappropriate for Mormon missionaries to discuss religion with, or get contact information from, anyone under age 18 without the consent of the parent.

 

A few facts about gay relationships and children. This may provide some reasons why the LDS church opposes gay marriage and why BSA prevents openly homosexual individuals from serving as leaders.

 

A disproportionate percentage -- 29 percent -- of the adult children of homosexual parents had been specifically subjected to sexual molestation by that homosexual parent, compared to only 0.6 percent of adult children of heterosexual parents having reported sexual relations with their parent. ... Having a homosexual parent(s) appears to increase the risk of incest with a parent by a factor of about 50. P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," Adolescence 31 (1996): 772.

 

The adolescent and young adult girls raised by lesbian mothers appear to have been more sexually adventurous and less chaste. ... In other words, once again, children (especially girls) raised by lesbians appear to depart from traditional gender-based norms, while children raised by heterosexual mothers appear to conform to them. Judith Stacey and Timothy J. Biblarz, "(How) Does the Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter," American Sociological Review 66 (2001): 174, 179.

 

Few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, but in a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting from 1-37 years, "all couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for sexual activity outside of their relationships." David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall, 1984), 252-253. "few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners." M. Pollak, "Male Homosexuality," in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, edited by P. Aries and A. Bejin, pp. 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality (Northvale, Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), 124, 25.

[Mr. Boyce]

One thing that's highly disturbing to me is the appallingly high number of sexual partners the average homosexual male has. This suggests strongly, to me at least, some deep emotional disturbance.

 

On an anecdotal level, I have had homosexual friends who have been cruelly abused by their "partners", essentially exploited financially and emotionally.

[captainron14]

Dan,

"When all else fails, pull out the NAMBLA boogieman".

This group that you so easily dismiss as a "boogie man", has been connected to most Gay rights propositions/issues throughout the US (including the UN).

 

So, are you defending their claim to "Civil rights" too? Maybe you should explain to those not in the know what NAMBLA is and what it's goals are?

 

Yes this is a slippery slope.

[Lisabob]

The North American Marlon Brando Look-alike Association?

 

(sorry, couldn't help myself)

 

The NAMBLA of which you speak is certainly not something I, or most people whether gay or straight, support. On the other hand, how committed gay couples being allowed a legal recognition of their commitment leads to NAMBLA is a bit cloudy and far-fetched.

 

 

[DanKroh]

"This group that you so easily dismiss as a "boogie man", has been connected to most Gay rights propositions/issues throughout the US (including the UN)."

 

Ahh, now we've moved on to guilt by association.

 

"So, are you defending their claim to "Civil rights" too? Maybe you should explain to those not in the know what NAMBLA is and what it's goals are?"

 

NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association, for those who really don't know what it is) originally had the goal of trying to reduce/eliminate the penalties for homosexual relations involving a minor and an adult, in effect, to eliminate the age of consent. Now, I don't happen to agree with that goal, although I do recognize that there is a disparity between the penalties for a minor/adult consensual heterosexual situation and a minor/adult consensual homosexual situation, which is discriminatory and should be rectified. Furthermore, the organization has become a haven to sexual predators, which the organization has not been very strident in purging.

 

For this reason as well, NAMBLA has been ostracized by every gay rights group. But as we have been so strongly reminded by this very thread, everyone has the right to freedom of speech to support any issue they like, even if their support is not wanted by the majority.

 

So yes, they are the boogie man that is generally pulled out to fearmonger when the all other logical arguments fail.

[DanKroh]

"P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," Adolescence 31 (1996): 772."

 

That would be Paul and Kirk Cameron of the Family Research Institute, who have been ostracized from the APA for their incredibly biased research.

 

"The adolescent and young adult girls raised by lesbian mothers appear to have been more sexually adventurous and less chaste."

 

Less chaste than what? Than conservative parents who try to force (unsuccessfully) chastity balls on their daughters? I would bet if they were compared to heterosexual couples who are themselves more liberal in their sexual ideas, there would be no measurable difference.

 

"Few homosexual relationships last longer than two years"

 

Again, how does this compare to heterosexual relations? What percentage of heterosexual relationships last longer than two years. Of course, to make it fair, we need to compare heterosexual relationships that *didn't* lead to marriage, since that is not an option for homosexuals in most places.

 

To make one of those unable to offend observations, every heterosexual I know had multiple sexual partners before marriage, and the vast majority of those were less than 2 years. Also, did it occur to you that homosexual relationships are under quite a bit more strain from social pressures than heterosexual relationships? Don't you think the longevity would only be improved by allowing them to marry?

 

Spewing out data is not convincing unless you provide something to compare it with.

[evmori]

Also, did it occur to you that homosexual relationships are under quite a bit more strain from social pressures than heterosexual relationships?

 

Or maybe because it just ain't natural?????

 

Don't you think the longevity would only be improved by allowing them to marry?

 

No. Does marrying improve the longevity of heterosexual relationships? It can, but there are no guarantees!

 

If God had wanted homosexuals to marry, men would be able to give birth & women would be able to impregnate each other!

[DanKroh]

"Or maybe because it just ain't natural?????"

 

Neither is monogamy. Best put a stop to that, too.

 

"Does marrying improve the longevity of heterosexual relationships? It can, but there are no guarantees!"

 

That's right, no point in even letting them try. I've got it, lets pass a constitutional amendment banning divorce. That should protect the sanctity of marriage!

 

"If God had wanted homosexuals to marry, men would be able to give birth & women would be able to impregnate each other!"

 

That's one of the most inane things I've read in a long time.

[packsaddle]

Ed, as the 'Y' chromosome continues to whittle itself into oblivion and as biotechnology, at the same time, is advancing very quickly, it is plausible that someday soon, women will be able to continue the species with no help from males.

[evmori]

"If God had wanted homosexuals to marry, men would be able to give birth & women would be able to impregnate each other!"

 

That's one of the most inane things I've read in a long time.

 

It's only inane because you don't believe it. That doesn't make it any less accurate.

[urloony]

If youre going to criticize any data presented DanKroh, you have to do so with evidence, not just your opinion. If you claim that Camerons work on adolescence and same sex marriage is faulty, youre going to need to prove it, Im not content to take your word for it. Furthermore, I found it curious that you made no comment on the fact that the vast majority of same sex couples are not monogamous. This fact is one of the cornerstones of traditional marriage, the failure of which is grounds for divorce in traditional marriage. Not so however, with a 21st century redefinition.

 

The proponents' efforts of same sex marriage has never been about equality or tolerance, it is to push an agenda of acceptance, not only of marriage between people of the same sex, but to redefine the rules within marriage such as fidelity, monogamy, child raising, etc. Homosexuals dont want to join the marriage club, they want to take it over.

 

According to homosexual writer and activist Michelangelo Signorile, the goal of homosexuals is: "To fight for same sex marriage and its benefits and then, once granted, redefine the institution of marriage completely, to demand the right to marry not as a way of adhering to society's moral codes but rather to debunk a myth and radically alter an archaic institution. . . . The most subversive action lesbian and gay men can undertake . . . is to transform the notion of 'family' entirely." Michelangelo Signorile, "Bridal Wave," Out, Dec. 1994.

 

 

This redefinition certainly would welcome verbal and physical abuse, drug use, intoxication, and incest as a normal and acceptable part of marriage.

 

A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse. Lettie L. Lockhart et al., "Letting out the Secret: Violence in Lesbian Relationships," Journal of Interpersonal Violence 9 (1994): 469-492.

 

In a survey of 1,099 lesbians, the Journal of Social Service Research found that "slightly more than half of the [lesbians] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. The most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse." Gwat Yong Lie and Sabrina Gentlewarrier, "Intimate Violence in Lesbian Relationships: Discussion of Survey Findings and Practice Implications," Journal of Social Service Research 15 (1991): 41-59.

 

The Bureau of Justice Statistics (U.S. Department of Justice) reports that married women in traditional families experience the lowest rate of violence compared with women in other types of relationships. "Violence Between Intimates," Bureau of Justice Statistics Selected Findings, November 1994, p. 2.

 

Among a sample [of homosexual women] as a whole, there was a distressingly high prevalence of life events and behaviors related to mental health problems. Thirty-seven percent had been physically abused and 32 percent had been raped or sexually attacked. Nineteen percent had been involved in incestuous relationships while growing up. Almost one-third used tobacco on a daily basis and about 30 percent drank alcohol more than once a week; 6 percent drank daily. One in five smoked marijuana more than once a month. Twenty-one percent of the sample had thoughts about suicide sometimes or often and 18 percent had actually tried to kill themselves. ... More than half had felt too nervous to accomplish ordinary activities at some time during the past year and over one-third had been depressed. Bradford et al., "National Lesbian Health Care Survey: Implications for Mental Health Care," Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 62 (1994): 239, cited in Health Implications Associated with Homosexuality, p. 81.

 

[DanKroh]

OK, Ed, since you presume to know what God "wants".

 

Here is a parallel statement to yours that is just as "valid".

 

If God had wanted my son to live, his heart would have worked properly.

 

Tell me, Ed, why did God want my son to die in infancy? Does that mean that the doctors defied God's will in fixing his heart so he could live?

 

For the record, I don't think God gives a hoot about the pieces of paper (i.e. marriage licenses) that people pass out to each other. And if this is about marriage being a "Sacrament", then lets ban all marriages that aren't performed in Churches. After all, it's what God wants, right?

[DanKroh]

"If youre going to criticize any data presented DanKroh, you have to do so with evidence, not just your opinion. If you claim that Camerons work on adolescence and same sex marriage is faulty, youre going to need to prove it, Im not content to take your word for it. "

 

No, I don't. Cameron is a hack. Don't take my word for it, just read some research that is not presented (or misquoted) by a biased religious-based group like FRC, FoF, or NARTH. Not interested in doing your homework for you, sorry.

 

"Furthermore, I found it curious that you made no comment on the fact that the vast majority of same sex couples are not monogamous. This fact is one of the cornerstones of traditional marriage, the failure of which is grounds for divorce in traditional marriage. Not so however, with a 21st century redefinition."

 

Actually, I did comment. By saying it means nothing unless you compare it similar (i.e. non-married) heterosexual couples. But curiously, you didn't include any of those statistics.

 

Well, here's a little quick and dirty math: since over 50% of "traditional marriages" end in divorce, and I'm sure somewhere out there are statistics on the number of marriages that actually survive infidelity by one member, not to mention the ones who never get married, I would bet that the vast majority of heterosexual couples are not really monogamous, either.

 

"The proponents' efforts of same sex marriage has never been about equality or tolerance, it is to push an agenda of acceptance, not only of marriage between people of the same sex, but to redefine the rules within marriage such as fidelity, monogamy, child raising, etc. Homosexuals dont want to join the marriage club, they want to take it over."

 

Ahh, smell the fearmongering.

 

Yes, just as blacks "redefined marriage" in the mid 1900s. Obviously, they've "taken it over". Must be part of that elusive, conspiratorial "gay agenda" I keep hearing about.

 

"This redefinition certainly would welcome verbal and physical abuse, drug use, intoxication, and incest as a normal and acceptable part of marriage."

 

Again, since none of this has happened in the one state where marriage equality has existed for 5 years and counting, I find this claim completely specious.

 

As for the rest of your cut and paste, I agree that homosexuals as a group have a higher incidence of mental illness, drug use, and everything else you mentioned. So would you if you were constantly told you were an "abomination" by society, by your parents, by your church, and everyone else around you. But don't confuse correlation with causation. There is no evidence that being homosexual inherently causes these things, but rather, there is much support that it is society's constant abuse of the self-esteem of every homosexual that leads to such a state.