SF: MOUNTAIN VIEW DAD LOSES NAME DISPUTE WITH BOY SCOUTS

[nolesrule]

" Now, there is an organization named Business Service Associates that also uses BSA. Wonder why the Boy Scouts of America hasn't gone after Business Service Associates? Sounds like selective suing to me! "

 

And there's the Business Software Alliance, which goes around raiding people for supposedly using pirate software with little to no evidence. It is a bit confusing when I see BSA in an article headline involving these guys.

 

That said, trademarks apply to market segments, not the entire market. These other BSAs do not overlap the market for Boy Scouts of America.

 

And as for "scouts" being a common word, I've already said twice on these message boards that the Congressional Charter gives the BSA additional trademark protections beyond those that are standard.

 

"The corporation has the exclusive right to use emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases the corporation adopts."

 

This statement exceeds limitations of traditional trademark law (and Congress has the power to allow that, just like MLB has an exemption to the Sherman Antitrust Act). So we really need to completely drop the "scouts is a common word" part of the argument has already been kaboshed.

 

Not saying I do or don't agree with the BSA's leagal tactics, just trying to give an explanation as to why certain arguments do or don't work (with the IANAL disclaimer).

[Gold Winger]

I find it interesting that BP Scouts in the US is headquartered only about 15 miles away from BSA headquarters.

[OldGreyEagle]

Way back in the mid 60's when I was a scout, one of the older kids drove a BSA motorcycle, I thought it was so cool the BSA made motorcycles. I couldnt wait for them to start making cars.

 

I am still waiting, BTW

[Chug]

"Way back in the mid 60's when I was a scout, one of the older kids drove a BSA motorcycle, I thought it was so cool the BSA made motorcycles. I couldnt wait for them to start making cars.

 

I am still waiting, BTW"

 

Your wait is at an end. BSA also made cars, including this one; http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-page.php/carno/44749

 

It's called the Scout Tourer.

 

[roy032564]

Not to create a firestrom, but i would love to have my daughter join cub scouts and then boy scouts. when she goes with her brother she enjoys it greatly. She gets it. She would be a great scout and probably would make Eagle. We tried the GSA program but was not impress (let alone got the direct implications that Dad's were not welcome to be involved in leadership, serve as a laborer to haul cookies and gear, but not in any leadership capacityn), the organizational structure burdens the leader (no centralization like in cubs and BSA) and the most shocking of all (and i hope someone will tell me it is not so) was the % of profit from the cookies that goes to the girl scout troop. I know popcorn is pricely, but i can always look people straight in the face that buy it and tell them that 70%+ is coming back to the scouts (about 35%+ to council, and 35% to pack, and only 30%+ to manufacturer).I would like to confirm about the approimate 8-10% per box commission that i have heard goes back to a girl scout troop. If that is even remotely true, that is shameful.

 

I have ended up putting her in a church program called "Sparks". She seems to like it and enjoys going. Program seems to be well run and structured.

 

BSA should expand the program to girls, but that would cause a gender war and that's not a battle they would want. But isn't America about capitalism, therefore shouldn't the consumer (ie families) decide which program is best for their children.

 

I just can't stop myself from saying it: But with all the constant bickering/lawsuits that is made to

have women and girls equal access to traditional male programs, why is it that i get the feeling the prohibition on girls in the BSA originates more from the GSA than BSA?

 

 

Eagle Dad, Veteran Cubmaster, soon-to-be Scoutmaster for New Troop...Roy

 

 

[evmori]

Personally, I feel it is a waste of resources & does nothing to promote Scouting.

[sheldonsmom]

If you don't defend the copyright/trademark, you won't have it very long.

We tried the GSUSA route with our oldest daughter and they were VERY anti homeschoolers. Not a good situation at all. We have found American Heritage Girls which is kind of a cross between Boy and Girl Scouts but they do NOT use the name "scouts" at all.

 

[evmori]

f you don't defend the copyright/trademark, you won't have it very long.

 

I have no problem if the BSA defends their copyright/trademark! My point is going after every youth group that wants to use the word scouts in it's name seems vindictive & a waste of money!

[Chug]

"I have no problem if the BSA defends their copyright/trademark! My point is going after every youth group that wants to use the word scouts in it's name seems vindictive & a waste of money!"

 

The problem is, if that organisation later folds under a heap of finacial irregularities or child abuse allegations you can guarantee that some people will assume it is the BSA because of the use of the name Scout.

 

[evmori]

The problem is, if that organisation later folds under a heap of finacial irregularities or child abuse allegations you can guarantee that some people will assume it is the BSA because of the use of the name Scout.

 

I doubt it & we all know what happens when we ass-u-me!

 

Edited for typo!(This message has been edited by evmori)

[IM_Kathy]

Hey Roy,

 

when I was a den leader and just a co-leader for girl scouts I couldn't begin to count the number of girl scouts that would attend a pack event and tell me that they wish girl scouts did these things. So, when I was asked to take over being the leader and then also Service Unit Manager I took steps to fix this.

 

it is hard in girl scouts in that they talk so much about letting girls do the things they want to do... so you'll have crafty girls, musical girls, sporty girls, camping girls all in girl scouts and then you need to find activities that will provide a good mix for all to enjoy. It's not possible to always get all of those into 1 event, we do try to get a couple of them.

 

the not allowing men is totally based off of the area you are in. men are allowed to be leaders as long as they have a non-related female with them. there are stricter rules when it comes to camping, and those can be a pain in the behind... unfortunately we are stuck with the national safety-wise rules.

 

but on the same token there are a couple of rules I ran into with cub scouts that I thought were all screwed up... I lost 1 webelos because when we were going to summer camp his dad didn't want to go, but his step-dad was willing to go, but the rules for our camp was that a boy could only stay in a tent with his actual parent. They didn't allow step-dad. We were working on juggling around tents to have the boys stay in a tent together, but he wasn't a camper and wanted to be with his step-dad. to me if mom and dad were okay with it, then what's the big deal?

[evmori]

I lost 1 webelos because when we were going to summer camp his dad didn't want to go, but his step-dad was willing to go, but the rules for our camp was that a boy could only stay in a tent with his actual parent. They didn't allow step-dad.

 

Now that's just plain wrong! We worry about another organization using the word Scout yet we fail to let the Scouts we have enjoy! His step-dad is his actual dad NOW! Morons!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Kudu]

nolesrule writes:

 

And as for "scouts" being a common word, I've already said twice on these message boards that the Congressional Charter gives the BSA additional trademark protections beyond those that are standard.

 

"The corporation has the exclusive right to use emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases the corporation adopts."

 

This statement exceeds limitations of traditional trademark law (and Congress has the power to allow that, just like MLB has an exemption to the Sherman Antitrust Act). So we really need to completely drop the "scouts is a common word" part of the argument has already been kaboshed.

 

The Congressional Charter does not SPECIFY that the corporation has the exclusive right to use the term "Scout." If the BOY Scouts of America can claim "Scout," then why not the word "BOY"? It is a matter of INTERPRETATION, which is why we have courts.

 

If the Ninth Circuit rules in the Youthscouts' favor, then the BSA will appeal to the Supreme Court. Even if the case is ultimately ruled in the BSA's favor, it will raise the understanding in the general population that Congress has the right to change the Charter at anytime, as specified in the Charter:

 

1) When the Charter was granted, most people believed that the nanny state should pick one corporation and make it the winner of Scouting. Since then, however, not everyone believes that this religious corporation is the best guardian of a Scouting Movement for ALL boys, the YMCA's original justification for the monopoly.

 

2) Also, the problem with the nanny state is that the lack of competition in a free market causes the favored corporation to go soft. If defeated, Youthscouts and its supporters should point out to Congress that the BSA has been dumbed down to a classroom/Cub Scout program rather than its mandate "to promote...the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft...using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

 

When more people understand that Congress picking the winning Scouting corporation is like Congress picking the winner of the Cola Wars, perhaps Congress can be persuaded to let the BSA continue to fill the needs of boys who yearn to sit indoors "side by side with adults of character," but (similar to the arrangement with the Girl Scouts) allow for the establishment of additional Scouting associations willing to "use the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

 

Chug from Great Britain writes:

 

"The problem is, if that organisation later folds under a heap of financial irregularities or child abuse allegations you can guarantee that some people will assume it is the BSA because of the use of the name Scout."

 

In that case the BSA should shut down all of the Scouting associations in Great Britain, especially since all three of them (even the conservative Christian group "The British Boy Scouts") violate the BSA's membership policies.

 

If the BSA's "trademark" on Scouting is legitimate, Chug, then you are in violation of our two countries' trademark treaties!

 

Kudu

 

 

[Gold Winger]

"His step-dad is his actual dad NOW!"

 

Sorry, Ed but a step-father is not an "actual father" unless he adopts the boy.

[roy032564]

IM Kathy,

 

I figure the "dad not really wanted" was probably an area issue. I don't even mind the extra protective view of young girls and adult men leaders. My basic concern is structure of organization. In BSA, i believe goals are to make boys into adults that make responsible decisions. Learn life lessons. To become leaders. I would like to have my daughter in a program that will do the same. Not a program that may or may not. Also, i would like to know the profit percentage from cookie sales that reach the acutal troop. To here a rumor of 10%+ percent, tells me the fundraiser is more for a national bureaucracy and the cookie manufacturer than the program. if true, that is wrong ethically and morally and should be exposed. the bottom line in scouting should be the life lessons.

 

Also, a step father, or other non-relative can go with the scout on the overnighter (ie sharing the tent). I have had the same issues and there is paperwork that can be filled out to allow it, but it's a little demanding.

 

EVMORI - Respect is one of the life lessons taught by scouting (i.e., name calling). I urge you to take a refresher course in one of the many scout training programs to help you understand its meaning. If somehow you feel compelled not to, i would suggest that you re-direct your volunteer services to a different organization which fall more in line with your temperament and demeanor.