One more lie

[Gold Winger]

"Maybe this is why Jesus refused to lead his followers in a revolt against their Roman oppressors."

 

So? Jesus was a peace-nik. Maybe we should all wander the desert for forty days, get spaced out from lack of water and food and argue with the devil.

[skeptic]

When we reach the point of crossing the line in regard to torture (methods as described as such in the Geneva Convention, which includes waterboarding), we have made ourselves hypocrites and made a case for "not being proud of our country". Why would we want to lower ourselves to that level? Don't we want to always have reason to have pride in our country and what it stands for? These are the kinds of things that have made us targets in many parts of the world, whether we want to admit it or not. We all generally recognize when the gray turns to black, even if we would rather not.

 

Shield up.

[Liz]

"So? Jesus was a peace-nik."

 

So, many people in this country (at least) believe Jesus was a good role-model. If you aren't one of those people, then that's certainly your choice. In that case, my post probably has no relevance to you. That's also your choice. I think there are also plenty of good arguments against torture like Skeptic's which don't drag some washed-up dead rabbi into the mix.

 

Of course, look where standing up for the moral high ground got Jesus...

 

Depending on your point of view, it got him:

Tortured to death

Lasting worldwide fame & respect

A great deal of influence over the fate of the Western World

Eternal glory at the right hand of God

 

If you opt for "Tortured to death" and don't fall in with any of the rest of it, then there's probably no convincing you that the moral high ground is worth taking. My personal opinion is that this is sad, but that and $3 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks so you're welcome to take it or leave it. I suspect you'll do the latter.

 

-Liz

[Gold Winger]

"Lasting worldwide fame & respect"

 

Only because a bunch of nuts made up stories about him

 

"A great deal of influence over the fate of the Western World"

 

And his followers killed and tortured thousands in his name in their efforts to spread his word.

 

"Eternal glory at the right hand of God"

 

So say the nuts who made up the stories.

 

 

[Liz]

Wow. I didn't mean to stir up so much venom.

 

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. As am I.

 

-Liz

[Gold Winger]

You think that was venom? Wow!

[packsaddle]

Hi Liz,

I see you've discovered some of Gold Winger's more endearing characteristics. I have to admit, for a while I was hoping to become the official forum curmudgeon and I think I was giving Beavah a run for the money but when Gold Winger came along I quickly saw I had no chance, outclassed...there was no contest. Just put on your thickest skin, maintain a sense of humor, and try to recognize the good stuff when it comes along.

[Liz]

Oh, don't worry about me. I'm much too secure in my core beliefs to let GW throw me off. I'm sure he's got a lot of great stuff to say about Scouting; but it's clear that there's some bitterness about Christianity that I'm not equipped to heal. And, GW, whatever it is that caused this, I apologize on behalf of the Christians out there who let you down somewhere along the line. I don't expect that to matter to you, but there it is.

 

Certainly, throughout history, there have been enough atrocities committed in the name of Jesus that one can make a list a mile long; I don't imagine it makes any difference that the same can be said of so-called followers of Islam, Hinduism, Paganism, Athiesm, or almost any other religion or ideology one can think of. I also don't imagine it makes any difference that many of us would not call these people "followers" of Jesus.

 

Someday I expect some group out there will lead a massive uprising and kill people in the name of Gandhi, too. And then people will believe that other people made all those stories about Gandhi up. That doesn't change what Gandhi was trying to teach, does it?

 

At least I can take comfort in knowing that GW doesn't think torture is a reliable method of obtaining information. We may have different reasons for it, but I don't have to rely on my ability to change his mind to take comfort in the idea that he's probably not out torturing people. ;-)

 

-Liz

[Gold Winger]

"but I don't have to rely on my ability to change his mind to take comfort in the idea that he's probably not out torturing people. ;-)"

 

At least not Muslims for now.

 

"And, GW, whatever it is that caused this, I apologize on behalf of the Christians out there who let you down somewhere along the line."

 

Just a revelation that allowed me to think for myself.

[Beavah]

Yah, wait a minute, eh?!

 

I got da scouter.com curmudgeon award and nobody ever gave me the knot??

 

I think packsaddle is just tryin' to keep cozyin' up to Mrs. Beavah. She's been sayin' he's not so bad for quite a while now. Next thing I know, she'll be makin' him cookies.

 

I can't speak for GW's issues, eh? But I've oft observed three kinds of faithful. Those with the simple, blind faith of children, those who rebel against the superficiality of faith to "think on their own" like teenagers, and those with a rich faith that recognizes the failures of religion and religiosity while also acknowledging the underlying truths of creation and divinity which can be expressed by religion. Like adults, eh? Each has their place; their time and purpose in individual lives.

 

Beavah

 

[vol_scouter]

Some observations on this thread that the resident attorneys might address: 1. Afghanistan and Iraq are not declared wars. The Senate authorized troops but did not actually declare war. 2. Only soldiers in uniform are covered by the Geneva convention. So the fighters are not covered by the Geneva convention. It is my understanding that since they are not in uniform, they may be executed as spies. 3. I agree that the Bush administration has been a disaster for the rights of prisoners and of our freedoms. His policies cannot be defended in my opinion (I am a conservative who usually votes republican).

 

Any comment from our attorney types?

[Gold Winger]

Not just soldiers in uniform, militias and resistance fighters are protected as well if they follow a few simple rules.

 

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

© That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

 

Of course the ragheads are not doing any of that.

 

[nldscout]

I know some may not like what I think on this, but after serving 26 yrs in the military in every crappy place I could think of, my answer is simple

 

SUMMARY EXECUTION! You hold an immediate hearing, find them guilty and SHOOT them. Period! NO lawyers, no mamby pamby BS, no crap. You want to shoot at me, them I am gonna execute you. If we had done that from the begining, I would not have lost as many friends as I have since this actions started.

[packsaddle]

Beavah, that would be oatmeal with raisins, please.

[CalicoPenn]

"SUMMARY EXECUTION! You hold an immediate hearing, find them guilty and SHOOT them. Period! NO lawyers, no mamby pamby BS, no crap. You want to shoot at me, them I am gonna execute you. If we had done that from the begining, I would not have lost as many friends as I have since this actions started."

 

Would it be anti-American of me to agree as long as it was understood that our opponents had every right to adopt the same policy?

You shoot at them, they capture you, hold a kangaroo court, find you guilty and just summarily execute you, right then and there.

 

You are willing to accept that the opponents can summarily execute your friends in the same manner, right?