Best be careful what we teach

[Liz]

"It's sad that his parents have taught him to be so mean towards people he disagrees with. "

 

You can't be sure it was the parents. I know I hear my kids spout off mean things about the candidate they like less, and I am constantly correcting them (and asking them to take derogatory statements off their facebook, etc.). While I will sit down and watch debates with the boys, and point out in *both* candidates when I think they're right or wrong about something, I do not stand for making mean jokes or personal attacks on them. They are, after all, PEOPLE.

 

Even though my boys are Scouts, some of the stuff they're getting from society, school, and the media rubs off. They have to be reminded about the "courteous" and "kind" concepts from time to time. They believe in these ideals, but they're still in training and sometimes they don't realize that it's still unkind to slam someone even if that person will never hear it.

 

I am not training my boys to be Republicans or Democrats. I'm trying to train them to look at each candidate based on his or her individual values and qualifications for the job. Yes, they know who my candidate preferences are this year, but I try very hard to explain my reasons in terms of my theories on economy, health care, etc., and not based on negative attacks on the candidate I don't prefer.

 

And I still hear the nasty comments coming from their mouths (although they do seem genuinely contrite when I remind them to be kind -- I think they really just get swept up and forget). Again... you can't assume it's the parents modeling these behaviors.

 

The kids are dressing up for Halloween (along with their cousins) as all four presidential and vice presidential candidates this year. I will expect them to display their best behavior and be respectful no matter which candidate each kid ends up with (of course I know my niece will be playing "Palin").

 

-Liz

[Gold Winger]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, said Packsaddle.

 

Race is determined by physical characteristics, physical characteristics are determined by genes. Pretty simple.

 

Let's try this one on for size, the genetic differences between myself at 6'2" and my 5'2" co-worker are incredibly minute as well. So by your standards, considering him short and me tall, is wrong because height is mostly a social construct.

 

All of you blathering about minute differences is meaningless because we aren't that different genetically from chimpanzees but you wouldn't say that there's no difference in species. Or would you?

(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[TheScout]

I love how people try to explain away the concept of race, which has existed through all the ages.

[TheScout]

One must love how scientists try to tell us simple folk that race does not exist all of a sudden.

 

(This message has been edited by TheScout)

[Trevorum]

The Scout,

I believe you have mis-understood what packsaddle (and I) were saying.

 

It's not that race doesn't exist. It certainly does but it is a cultural construct only. There is no biological basis for what we call race.

 

Now, GW and others have noted correctly that skin color, hair, etc. are inherited and are thus biological. This is true, of course, but so are many, many other attributes which are not as obvious to the naked eye. Blood type is a good example. These attributes are just as important to human biology but are not visually obvious and so are not included by us when we mentally group people who are alike and different.

 

If we were to measure, say, 100 different attributes of people including skin color, eye folds, etc. but also blood type, etc. we would find net variability within each "race" is equal to or eve greater than variability between the races. This means that our ideas of race are arbitrary and based on cultural - not biological - definitions.

 

A point I tried to make above which nicely demonstrates this is that race is defined differently by different cultures. For example, where we would see three Black people, a native African might see a Tutsi, a Hutu, and a Maasai. Americans call these ethnic groups, but Africans see them as races. Similarly, where we would just see three Latinos, a native of Mexico might see a Mestizo, a Borquino, and a Zambiago. And those names have very real meanings (including different levels of prejudice). Our black-white-hispanic-Asian-native system works for us, but is not much used by other people around the world.

 

All this is to say that race is certainly a useful system by to identify group outsiders but it is a culturally defined and arbitrary system that only scratches the surface of the myriad of ways in which humans differ from each other.

 

 

(minor edits(This message has been edited by Trevorum)

[packsaddle]

Gold Winger, Perhaps more wasted rhetoric, but: How many chromosomes do humans have? How many chromosomes do chimps and other great apes have?

But you're right, we do share a lot of traits with the other primates, especially Bonobos. Of course this is expected, considering we have a related evolutionary lineage. We ARE related to them in many ways.

 

Thanks Trevorum, I agree. Actually I think this discussion is a nice demonstration of the power that the illusion has. We all have access to objective scientific observations regarding race and genetics - evidence that has never been available before. Some of us choose to ignore the evidence.

 

To try to bring this back to topic, I'll raise the question again, but with regard to 'race'. Is the concept of race something that we teach, or is it the result of an innate human characteristic and would arise again and again even if somehow we didn't teach it to our children?

 

 

[ScoutMomSD]

good thread - lots of fun!

 

I am an Obama supporter in a sea of McCain and prop 8 yard signs. But being in a Blue state, it doesnt really bother me. I am not going to lessen or change my opinion. Interesting is I had my Obama button on my purse and I cant TELL you how many folks have said "I love your button" - nothing else, no hatred for McCain. And I have to say 100% of these folks are women or young (under 30) people. I am not trying to convert or preach, but I have a right to show my support.

 

I used to work for a company based in Macon, GA (the corporate office, I lived in California). I had folks my age who had gone to segregated high schools. When I visited once a friend took me to a real southern restaurant and he freely used the "N" word and "the blacks" in front of the people there AND they didnt say anything. As a person born in San Francisco, I was so offended. (And Al, I know where Danville is - one of the most beautiful places on earth)

 

This same person came to LA to do an audit of our hospital and my boss picked him up at the LA airport. He said LOUDLY "look at all the "nxxxx's" and "spxxxxxc's" here"-my boss literally was afraid he would be knifed.

 

Were me and my boss different? NO - its how they were raised. The flip side of that is I love Southern men, as they are very very nice to women and I was always shocked at how polite they were. Despite the racism. Of course this was 20 years ago when I still was a natural blonde and had a figure!

 

 

[Beavah]

Is the concept of race something that we teach, or is it the result of an innate human characteristic and would arise again and again even if somehow we didn't teach it to our children?

 

Yah, I think "race" is just a proxy word for "society," "culture," or "tribe."

 

I remember once on a university campus havin' to deal with an ugly dispute between two black women. One was American, the other was African. They in no way saw each other as part of da same group.

 

Just take a look at former Yugoslavia, or modern Ossetia. It doesn't take racial distinction to make us identify ourselves with one group and against another. The Bosnians, Serbs, and Croats seem to be able to distinguish each other well enough to shoot, despite bein' racially alike.

 

Been among some racists who dislike Latinos, but were good friends with Philipinos or former Cubans. For them, their "racism" was really a proxy for "class." Hispanics were poor, illiterate people. Well-educated, wealthy folk of Latino ancestry were just fine. I've heard that about blacks from some racially biased folks too, eh? Colin Powell is OK. He's not "really" black; his parents were Jamaican. Their bias is targeted not so much at race, but at social group and status.

 

I reckon our capacity for de-humanizing groups we are in competition with is huge, eh? But that's the real core of it. Religion, race, ancestry, political persuasion, are all just proxies for "my tribe" vs. "their tribe." That's goin to arise again and again. What form it takes is determined by what "our tribe" teaches our kids.

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

Wow, Beavah! Except for the accent THAT was beautiful!

 

ScoutMomSD, I hate to poke a pin in your balloon. Nope, I actually enjoy it.

If you peek under the surface, you'll find that in my area at least, there's a whole lot of domestic violence...more than most parts of the country. And in South Carolina a couple of years ago, there was a political embarrassment that the legislature had revised two laws, giving cockfighting and domestic violence stiffer penalties (they had both been misdemeanors in the past). They ended up passing the new protection for chickens (felony, up to 5 years in prison) and tabled (thus killing) the domestic violence bill (which stayed misdemeanor at 30 days max). The legilature was overwhelmingly male. I thoroughly enjoyed this site:

http://guerillawomentn.blogspot.com/2005/04/south-carolina-legislators-sexist.html

 

I'm not certain if they've gotten around to protecting women yet...perhaps Gwd_scouter can tell us.

 

Anyway,from the Violence Policy Center, SC, LA, GA, MS, TX, and TN were all in the top ten for the rate of murder of women by men. The fact that AK (number 1), AZ, NM, and NV rounded out the list indicates that perhaps it isn't strictly a Southern thing. But the top 20 brought in the rest of the South. A woman was least likely to be killed by a male in NH and SD. Florida wasn't ranked because of lack of data. Here's the source:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/wmmw2005.pdf

 

So while Rhett Butler might cut a dashing figure, there's a good chance he's really a jerk. And next time you're in a bar, if the jukebox only takes Confederate money, be careful. Very, very, careful.

 

[gwd-scouter]

Oh, and let's not forget the protection of dogs in South Carolina:

 

Any person who:

(b) is present at any structure, facility, or location with knowledge that fighting or baiting of any animal is taking place or is about to take place there is guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction for a first offense must be punished by a fine of five hundred dollars or imprisonment for six months, or both, and for a second offense by a fine of one thousand dollars or imprisonment for one year, or both. Any person convicted of a third or subsequent offense is guilty of a felony and must be punished by a fine of five thousand dollars or imprisonment for five years, or both.

 

compare that to:

CHAPTER 25.

CRIMINAL DOMESTIC VIOLENCE

ARTICLE 1.

GENERAL PROVISIONS

 

(B) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person who violates subsection (A) is guilty of the misdemeanor of criminal domestic violence and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars nor more than two thousand five hundred dollars or imprisoned not more than thirty days. The court may suspend the imposition or execution of all or part of the fine conditioned upon the offender completing, to the satisfaction of the court, and in accordance with the provisions of Section 16-25-20(I), a program designed to treat batterers.

 

Rather sad I think.

[packsaddle]

Oops, I see that SC has risen to #2 one year later, just behind NV which also seems to have found something they do really well. Alaska is down to 14. NH is still the safest for women followed by IL.

Hey, SC is near the top in something besides STDs, obesity, and neo-con(federate) flags. Nice! Here's the newer document just released last month:

http://www.sccadvasa.org/articles/140.pdf

 

Top 10 still dominated by the South. We may beat hell out of women but we sure are protective of chickens and dogs (thanks GWD, you confirmed my suspicion that the legislators, of course, have done nothing).

[evmori]

Who let the dogs out!

 

Who Who!

 

Who let the dogs out!

[Vicki]

>Now, GW and others have noted correctly that skin color, hair, etc. are inherited and are thus biological. This is true, of course, but so are many, many other attributes which are not as obvious to the naked eye. Blood type is a good example. These attributes are just as important to human biology but are not visually obvious and so are not included by us when we mentally group people who are alike and different. >

 

Race is a social construct, albeit a most powerful one. I would argue that blood type is an attribute that is more important than any cosmetic attribute - the wrong blood type transfused can be a death sentence. Then you throw in RH factor in the developing embryo and you get disaster.

 

However, we do seem to be genetically disposed to emphasizing difference rather than similarity. I don't remember the name of the study, but back in the day there was a study that determined that a population of "normal" monkeys would always identify and ostracize (to the point of physically harming) an albino monkey.

 

Some of us try harder than others to rise above this sort of behavior but, from an evolutionary point of view, it did protect family/tribal interests. Such a deeply ingrained behavior will take time to get past.

 

Vicki

 

[perdidochas]

Interesting how an anti-Obama Boy Scout in California ends up in a South bashing thread.

 

The real issue should be how the lady knew the boy was a boy scout, and if he was in uniform at the time. Scouts in Uniform are not allowed to be political. Scouts in civilian clothes may.

 

I've lived in the South (Georgia, Alabama and north Florida) most of my life, with the exception of 3 1/2 yrs in Miami (which is far from the South). Racism exists here in the South (just like it does in the rest of the world), but honestly, I've never been more irritated than I used to be in Miami, when fellow students after hearing I was from Alabama, would tell me that they were racists, too. Two reasons--1) I grew up non-racist; 2) why would these racists want to talk to me, in no way do I act racist, other than having grown up in Georgia and Alabama.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Hi perdidochas, welcome to the forums. I'm guessing you are from the Perdido Key area?

I'm in to my 6th decade of living my entire life in the South. And I guess I'm the guilty party for getting some of the statistics out on regional differences. My motives are not to bash the South for no reason. Rather they are to wake people, especially Southerners, up to the grim facts. If you know where I have been factually incorrect, I'd sure like to get it right so let me know about it.

Otherwise, facts are facts.