Judge scouts answer to infringement case

[Beavah]

Yah, no question Wrenn's objective was to create a deliberate test case, eh? Someone should eventually go after the other semi-bogus trademarks like jamboree or scout gear, or BSA should be honorable and drop 'em.

 

Problem with gents like Wrenn who are pushing an agenda is that they should not represent themselves, eh? A lawyer representing himself has a fool for a client and all that. Because he's so into his agenda, he made weaker arguments in his court filings than he could have, and that might determine how his case is resolved. Also bungled venue between TTAB and district court a bit.

 

(a shoutout to nolesrule, who is right about da Lehman Act bein' an interstate commerce clause act - and therefore not subject to time limits)

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

Sounds like Beaver is a dis-loyal Scouter. Perhaps we should cut his buttons off and break his Swiss Army Knife.

 

Semi-bogus?

[DeanRx]

I'm not a lawyer, don't play on on TV, and I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night - so I won't attempt to split hairs over patent vs trademark vs. copyright law...

 

My overall point is this:

 

If (gasp) BSA were to allow for inclusion of the 3 groups in question (gays, atheists, and females), but were to do so by drafting strict policy regarding what can and cannot be discussed, disimenated, or objected to in meetings and gatherings (i.e. set their own terms / standards)...

 

Would this not deflate the sails and lay void the arguments of the opposition?

 

Set the rules up strictly. With regards to atheists - Say, if you want to come play, we are happy to have you. However, we ARE a religious / faith based organization, therefore there will be prayers / invocations / benedictions / etc... if you have an issue with it, please refrain from distrupting the ceremony and be a respectful non-participant, or there's the door (lack of scout spirit = out of the group)... (Just as in business - its easier to make a bad employee QUIT than it is to fire them).

 

I don't suggest BSA go out of their way to make said groups feel unwelcome, but make it known up front, this is what we are about and YOU (as an individual) are choosing to participate. If you don't like or agree with our beliefs, then you can choose not to be part of our group.

 

It turns the situation from - "We are excluding said group because we don't agree with their views...". INTO - "We asked them to join us, but because they don't like what WE believe, they chose to not participate." They have no leg to stand on in court any longer!

 

As for the gays - its an easy policy shift to: "Any and ALL discussion regarding sexuality is off-limits between adult leaders and youth in BSA. Such discussion is deemed to be contrary to the mission of BSA and will result in termination of privledges within the unit. Discussions of a sexual nature (either hetero or homo) between youth in the group are to be discouraged by all adult leadership." Period. If a scout has a sex question (hetero or homo) - direct them to a trusted adult family member, a church member, a school counselor or school / community health adviser - someone outside of BSA! Stay the HECK off that topic !

 

The female thing... well honestly - who (other than kid sisters of some of the cubs) truely want to join Cub / Boy Scouts. Those that do will likely join GSA or join a venturing crew. I really don't understand the whole, "A female adult is OK, in fact we are happy to have the help.... but 'no girls allowed'."

 

And call me odd, but isn't interacting and dealing with not just females, but diversity (gays / atheists) as a whole something that everyone needs to learn as a life skill? Our goal in Scouting is to prepare youths (namely boys) to be productive citizens and mature adults. They're gonna have to learn to deal with these facets of life at some point. Why not in a controlled, nuturing, supportive environment like BSA?

 

I just think that once you take away the "agenda" from those that have one, they loose the will to fight. Then BSA can utilize its resources in a more productive manner to build even better programs for the youth of America.

 

If I was director of BSA national - I'd advocate for a 13th point to the Scout Law.... A scout is tollerant.

 

It doesn't mean the scout endorses or agrees. It means a scout agrees to disagree without being exclusive in their manerisms...

 

Perhaps I'm a bit of a dreamer, but I think BSA will get there someday... or Bevah might be correct... congress could always decide to revoke the charter and hand the raines to another "youth" organization. Hope I don't live to see that day.

[Gold Winger]

Why no girls? I ask "why girls?"

 

Boy normally don't seek out girls for play or companionship at young ages. Remember, girls are icky and have cooties. Even at older ages, most guys want to hang out with guys, girls are for dates. Girls like to hang out with girls. Girls and guys talk about different things. They like to do different things.

 

You'd be hard pressed to find a girl, or woman, who thinks that farting is funny.

 

'Nuff said about that.

 

Atheists being respectful and not disruptive? I wouldn't hold my breath. Maybe a few but not many that I've known. Bill Maher was on TV last night talking about his movie and he continually hammered on how stupid he thought religion was and how idiotic it was that rational people would buy into it. Most atheists are like that.

 

[evmori]

Gentlemen,

 

This topic is about copyright infringement not gays & atheists! Let's stay on topic please!

[nolesrule]

Actually, it's about trademark infringement. Copyright infringement is a whole 'nother beast.

[DeanRx]

GW-

 

1) I have two boys. They play with BOTH girls and boys in the neighborhood ALL THE TIME ! From what I've seen, they don't seek out or seek to avoid based on gender, but on what they have in common (a shared street) and whether or not the other kid and they get along.

 

2) All atheists are disruptive? O.K. - so if you have an autistic scout that acts out, are they collectively (as a group) barred from scouting? What if the religion is not judeo-Christian in nature? Guess I'll have to tell the Hindu kid that just joined he's not welcome...

 

3) This post IS about gays and atheists ! The suit is filed because BSA is fighting a rival organization for trademark infringement based on the FACT that the second group was denied membership in BSA to begin with because of their beliefs in regards to gays, atheists, and females.

 

That's like saying if I sue an automaker because they made a faulty car and I go into a wreck, that I'd be suing on the grounds of poor quality. Factually, yes this is true.... but I'd be suing b/c I got hurt due to their oversight or outright mallice.

 

I'll go back to letter the 'lawyers' fight over semantics... its better than substance anyways.

[evmori]

 

That's it! Would the moderators please remind everyone of the subject of the topic and demand people stay on topic! Man! You think, well, I'm not going there!

 

;)

[Gold Winger]

"1) I have two boys. They play with BOTH girls and boys in the neighborhood ALL THE TIME ! "

 

You have very unusual boys. According to Desmond Morris, it is normal,healthy and beneficial for boys and girls to not want to spend time together.

 

"O.K. - so if you have an autistic scout that acts out, are they collectively (as a group) barred from scouting?"

 

What's that have to do with atheists?

 

"What if the religion is not judeo-Christian in nature?"

 

Oddly, I've never seen a Hindu or a Wiccan launch a tirade when someone bows their head in prayer at lunch.

 

(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[DeanRx]

:)

 

Evmori writes ,"That's it! Would the moderators please remind everyone of the subject of the topic and demand people stay on topic! Man! You think, well, I'm not going there!"

 

***************

 

I guess I should then request that the mods REMIND (or demand to use Evmori's words) that just because someone doesn't agree with what another poster has to say doesn't mean that its automatically "off-topic" and thus should be censured.... so much for a free exchange of ideas.

 

***********************

 

GW - You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't begrudge you your stance.

 

It does bother me somewhat that because I use my own life expirience as an example, you feel compelled to use derogatory adjectives towards my children. Some would argue that when you must stoop to personal attacks, you have lost the debate on merit, so you drop to mudslinging as a last resort(thats what my HS debate coach used to teach).

 

My point is kids are kids and some boys play with girls, others do not. I agree you can easily ask "Why have girls in scouts?" just as you can ask "Why not?".

 

As for an autistic child and atheists - you're right. Neither have ANYTHING to do with each other, which is my point. You do NOT exculde an entire subset of the population because SOME in that subset may act out in an inappropriate manner. The acting out doesn't matter if its the result of a physiological ailment or b/c of misguided faith - its still acting out - so do you exclude them?

 

GW writes, "Oddly, I've never seen a Hindu or a Wiccan launch a tirade when someone bows their head in prayer at lunch."

 

With all due respect GW - I've never seen an atheist or agnostic launch a tirade when someone bows their head in prayer at lunch either. I hardly think Bill Maher is the typical example of an atheist (just as Rush is not the 'typical' example of a conservative) - they just both happen to have a microphone and say outlandish things to get ratings.

 

I just think BSA would be in a better position if they tread lightly on the issue of religion....

 

What if (gasp) - a democratic and highly liberal president (gee it could happen) and a democratic and highly liberal congress (yup already have that) decided that the BSA charter was no longer valid. Where does that leave the organization?

 

What if the largest youth movement in the U.S. instead ackowledged and included any and all religions EXCEPT LDS? Over 50% of those very actively involved in scouting would be left out. I'm sure that would be viewed as discrimination, but as long as the perverbal hiking boot is on the other foot.... well - we're just making a stand for our beliefs, aren't we?

 

As an aside - back when my father was in scouting, there was talk in certain areas of the U.S. of keeping the "colored folks" out of the organization... funny how wrong that seems now, but then it was an honest and respected setiment.

 

Like I said - in time, hopefully BSA will see the irony of these policies and revise them accordingly for the good of ALL of America's youth.

 

*** I'm done with this thread - on to more positive discussion ***

 

YiS,

 

Dean

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

You mean a democratic and highly liberal president whose parents were both atheists?

[Kudu]

A trial date has been set in the federal district court case in which

Youthscouts will defend the right of independent scouting groups to

exist in the United States and use the terms "scout" and "scouting" to

describe programs based on Robert Baden-Powell's original program.

http://www.youthscouts.org/news.html

 

The Youthscouts case is NOT just about the BSA's membership polices. The BSA's current monopoly allows it to literally DEFINE what words like "Scout" and "Scouting" mean.

 

The object of BSA training is to systematically destroy Robert Baden-Powell's original program based on the Patrol System, and it is place establish work-group manager theory as the meaning of the "Patrol Method."

 

To get an idea of what American Wood Badge trainers actually teach new Scouters about the Patrol Method these days:

 

1) Purchase a copy of the course outline of "BSA Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Training" for $12.99: http://tinyurl.com/3lmmmr

 

2) Turn to the "Patrol Method" session.

 

3) Look for ANY reference to the "Patrol Method." Except for the fake Baden-Powell quote at the very beginning, the Patrol Method is NEVER mentioned, is it?

 

4) Look for ANY reference to a "Patrol Leader." There is NO reference to a Patrol Leader, is there?

 

5) Look for ANY reference to a Patrol of Scouts. There is NO example of a Patrol of Scouts, is there?

 

6) In fact the "Patrol Method" session is all about the relationship of "adult leadership styles" to the "needs of the group," isn't it?

 

The "Patrol Method" session gives the example of an adult telling a group of Scouts to extinguish the campfire. The adult does NOT work through their Patrol Leader because bypassing Patrol Leaders is the appropriate BSA "adult leadership style" to use with the "needs" of new Scouts.

 

Before Wood Badge fell in love with the work-group theories of Bla H. Bnthy and Kenneth H. Blanchard, all red-blooded American boys loved Scouting. But Scouting has been dumbed-down to the Cub Scout level so that boys can practice work-group theory for their POR rather than leading what the BSA once called a "Real Patrol."

 

The intentional destruction of the Patrol Method by golden parachute experts is a dirty shame.

 

The BSA will be motivated to return to its traditional roots only if it faces competition in the marketplace by YouthScouts, Baden-Powell Scouts, etc.

 

If not then real Scouting will just migrate to these other Scouting associations and leave BSA executives and Wood Badge Course Directors to move boys inside to "sit in front of computer screens side by side with adults of character."

 

Kudu

[Gold Winger]

"It does bother me somewhat that because I use my own life expirience as an example, you feel compelled to use derogatory adjectives towards my children."

 

Since when is "unusual" a deragatory adjective? Fishing for insults is the usual behavior of a certain subset of society.

 

" I've never seen an atheist or agnostic launch a tirade when someone bows their head in prayer at lunch either. "

 

Maybe you haven't been around too many atheists.

 

"Like I said - in time, hopefully BSA will see the irony of these policies and revise them accordingly for the good of ALL of America's youth."

 

Strangely, the more inclusive Scouts Canada is struggling. GSUSA is far more inclusive than BSA and they're struggling too. Maybe there's a message there.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm not particularly in favor of da BSA changing its membership standards, eh?

 

But I also don't think we've got anything to fear from competition. A bit of competition may even keep us honest. So rather than lookin' to the government to guarantee us a monopoly, I reckon we'd do just fine in a more open market, where the generic terms "scout" and "scouting" can apply to multiple groups.

 

I see Wrenn's suit being more about Freedom than about gays and atheists. I'm kinda fond of freedom myself, especially freedom from government control of everything. Like I said, trying to maintain a government-granted monopoly is dangerous for the BSA, eh? Too easy for da government to transfer the monopoly to someone else more in keepin' with da views of a majority of congresscritters.

 

Beavah

 

[DeanRx]

so GW-

 

If I refered to YOUR son as "unusual", you would take no offense to that statement?