The Debate

[vol_scouter]

packsaddle,

 

I am not sure what you mean by those outbursts. If you mean "Am I frustrated and want the mainstream media to investigate Obama" then the answer is yes. If you mean any of the supposed calls for harm, then absolutely NO!! If Obama gets elected, I will try to support the president, pray for the president, and pray that my misgivings which the mainstream media wishes to ignore are unfounded. I always want the president to succeed for the good of the country. I lived through Carter and saw the damage that increasing the capital gains taxes did to the economy so I have little hope. It is unfathomable to me that so many educated people are not concerned that Obama has so many unresolved issues. I understand the frustration and angry toward the president and the republican party - I share in those emotions. That should not translate into blindly trusting someone with as many potential serious issues as Obama. All of these issues may be of not consequence but they should be investigated before we are expected to vote for him.

[Lisabob]

What do you mean by "supposed calls for harm?" Are you suggesting that perhaps these did not actually occur at Republican rallies last week?

[vol_scouter]

Lisabob,

 

In the short news clips that I have seen, people have called him a terrorist, a socialist, and a marxist. I have not seen or heard actual threats. I am sure that the Secret Service will investigate anyone making threatening comments. So that from what I know directly, there have been no threats at rallies. From your posts, you certainly appear to be trustworthy so if you say that people at McCain rallies have threatened Obama I believe you. I do not condone threats or violence toward any candidate or their families. The only racist comments that I have heard have come from the Obama campaign charging the McCain campaign which I have heard no racist comments from. I do not believe that this is about race. I think that the emotion is about ideology and the way the media has attacked Governor Palin and protected Obama.

[Lisabob]

Vol, there's plenty of coverage out there, in news outlets of all stripes, of the recent outbursts at the McCain rallies. Reportedly, the secret service is looking into some of the harsher outcries.

 

By the way, regarding your previous concern, you may also want to check out this link (re: "born alive") http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/762/ OR this one http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_alive_baloney.html

 

You might note that this assertion against Obama was found to be "false" by both Factcheck.org and by Politifact.com, both well-regarded groups. (though Factcheck asserts as well that Obama's comeback was also flawed in its claim that McCain wants to ban all abortions - in fact, that would be Palin's stance though not (previously) McCain's.)

[vol_scouter]

Lisabob,

 

I believe your assertion that threatening remarks have been made toward Obama. I hope that the Secret Service is investigating! Such remarks have no place in political discourse. All of the questions about Obama are fair game as are similar questions about McCain. First Amendment freedoms give people the right to call Obama a terrorist but I once again am against assertions which seem to have no validity just as the media asserting that Todd Palin is the father of Bristol's child. Neither are helpful.

 

As to the abortion issue, their is a video that I believe is on Ms. Jensen's website as well as youtube. In the video, Obama clearly states that a baby surviving an abortion should not be entitled to medical treatment because it might be 'inconvenient' to the mother. He is clear in his statement. I understand that there was existing Illinois law but he did not reference that in the clip. If he did reference that and it was not included in the clip, he still did not have to state that the baby is not entitled to medical treatment. One way or the other, he stated clearly that he was against requiring medical treatment for these defenseless babies. I appreciate the thoughtful reply but I am unmoved and still feel that Obama is unfit to be president. If he is elected (I shudder), I will support him and hope that he does well for our country.

[packsaddle]

Correct, Lisabob. Obama's opinion is essentially a states rights approach. I don't agree. Women should be free to make this decision for themselves, unencumbered by governmental interference. It is an individual responsibility. It should be an individual choice.

 

The thing is, the Republicans seem to prefer this decision to be made by the central authority of the Federal Government. Another one of those ironies I suppose.

 

Edited for clarity(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[gwd-scouter]

I find it interesting that folks are crying media sexism when referring to attacks on Palin, but those same folks never said a word when the sexism was aimed at Clinton. Senator Clinton, in my view, suffered much harsher attacks during the primaries - and, now this is important I think - for a MUCH LONGER period of time.

 

Obama not being properly vetted? Oh come on now. Maybe the folks saying that the Ayers connection hasn't been brought into the light are watching the wrong news programs. Maybe they aren't reading the right magazines and newspapers. I dare say that anyone interested in finding out anything about a candidate has a multitude of resources. If the mainstream media aren't digging up enough dirt on your opposition, go to any of the right- or left-leaning cable news shows. The Internet is a lively news and opinion rich environment to support your views.

 

I would have much more sympathy for those folks that keep saying the media are giving Obama a pass and Ms. Palin is being attacked if the McCain campaign would allow Governor Palin to actually be held up to the same kind of scrutiny that Obama, Clinton, and all the other candidates were for the last two years.

 

Let Palin do more media interviews - and not with McCain sitting by her side. That particular interview came across as big daddy having to protect his little girl.

 

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

OK, gwd - this is what I haven't seen fully explored on Obama. He says he and Ayers just live in the same neighborhood, that they aren't even that close of friends, that he had no idea about his past. Have you heard that Michelle Obama worked with Ayers' wife (check out her own sordid history), at the same law firm? The same law firm where Obama worked for the summer after his first year at Harvard, where he met Michelle? That Obama launched his political career from Ayers' living room? That Ayers hired Obama to manage the Annenberg grant that he secured for Chicago? That they served together on the board of the Woods Fund? That they served together on several panels discussing education reform, some of which were set up by Michele Obama? All these connections, going back well over 10 years, and we are supposed to believe that Obama had no idea about Ayers past, and that he doesn't know him that well - he's just a guy in the neighborhood? Sorry, but that just doesn't cut the mustard with me. Would you launch any kind of career in just any one of your neighbor's living rooms??

 

Also, we are supposed to believe that Obama attended Rev. Wright's church for 20 years, and he never knew Wright was preaching those hateful sermons?? If Obama is that clueless, and is such a badge judge of character, he has no business being in the White House!

 

We teach our Scouts you are a product of the company you keep, so chose your friends wisely. Applying that standard to Obama, I see his close associates as Ayers (see above), Rev. Wright (for 20 years), Tony Rezco (next door neighbor, fund raiser), ACORN (he worked as a community activist and lawyer for them). Sorry, but I see nothing honorable about anyone in that group. In fact, I see fraud, corruption, greed and hate. Would you associate with any of those people?

[SR540Beaver]

Brent,

 

I've served on two Wood Badge staffs. I was an ASM for the 2005 Jambo. Those positions were run by the SE of our council for approval. Heck, he even sat next to me at the staff table at the day 6 WB luncheon and we chit-chatted before he spoke. Other than knowing what he has done since becoming our SE and a little of what I've heard of his background previous to that, I have no idea what his actions were 40 years ago. But based on the hate machines logic, me and the SE have been best buddies for years and cohorts in crime for the majority of it. Crossing paths and being involved in the same organizations does not mean we have had deep strategic meetings in darkened rooms full of cigar smoke. Does a Democratic politician from Chicago have occasion to be acquainted with and run in the same circles as another person involved in Chicago Democrat politics? Well....YEAH!!! Do you hold McCain to the same standard for associating and accepting the endorsement of the indicted, convicted and unrepentant Oliver North who like Ayers managed to get off on a technicality? What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

[BrentAllen]

SR540,

If you want to compare Ayers to Oliver North, that's your business. Last time I checked, Oliver North was not attacking his own country.

 

Serving on a WB staff isn't comparable to running a foundation that handed out $50 million. I suggest you look into who received money from the CAC, and who gave money to Obama's campaign. I'm sure each and every one of those is just a coincidence. You weren't selected to serve on WB to hand out favors, or money. Obama's position was very political, and powerful. Exactly how much power did you wield on WB staff? The times I served, I can't say I had much at all. Do you actually think Obama was selected for that position in the same way you were selected to serve? No, those positions only go the politically connected, and those people are usually in bed with each other, politically speaking.

 

Sorry, but I don't buy his story. Too many connections, going back for years. And that is just one of many bad relationships for him.

[SR540Beaver]

Brent,

 

Ollie sold weapons to a known terrorist state to illegally fund guerilla fighters in another country. Iran is part of the axis of evil if you recall. If you want to associate with that kind of person, that is your business.

[vol_scouter]

Oliver North was in the military and was carrying out what he believed to be lawful orders. Mr. North used his positiom to obtain a security system for his house due to threats. He was ridiculed by the democrats for taking those actions because he was threatened by an obviously impotent muslim named Osama Bin Laden.

 

Mr. North may have been wrong but I would much rather associate with him than Ayers who wants to destroy this country, attacked this country, and killed its' citizens. Mr. North honors this country, its' soldiers, and its' flag. Ayers hates the country, its' soldiers, and stands on the flag.

 

Go ahead and associate with a true terrorist - a murderer and I will associate with an honorable though flawed man.

[AlFansome]

 

Quick fact check...

 

Bill Ayers has never been convicted (or charged) with killing anyone.

 

A police officer died in a bombing in San Francisco that was suspected of being either the work of the Black Panthers or the Weather Underground but was never proven or prosecuted in any way.

 

In fact, the Weather Underground typically sent evacuation warnings in advance to the government buildings targeted with bombings.

 

...end fact check

 

You may now all get back to your regularly scheduled rants.

 

[SR540Beaver]

vol,

 

The Osama bin Laden/Oliver North thing is an urban legend.

 

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/north.asp

 

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blnorth.htm

 

North was found guilty of falsifying and destroying documents, obstructing Congress and illegally receiving the gift of a security fence around his home in Virginia.

 

He received a three-year suspended prison sentence, two years on probation, 1,200 hours' community service with inner city drugs projects and a $150,000 fine.

 

The retired lieutenant-colonel had his annual service pension - of $23,100 suspended after 20 years in the US Marines and he has been barred from holding any federal office.

 

He was later acquitted based on a technicality.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/5/newsid_2772000/2772471.stm

[BrentAllen]

Oliver North:

Graduated from the Naval Academy, commissioned into the Marines in 1968. Served in Vietnam, where he was awarded the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and two Purple Hearts. 20 years in the Marines, serving his country. Indicted in the Iran-Contra affair, but charges overturned. Hosts War Stories and works as a news correspondent. Can often be seen on the ground with soldiers, praising their service to country, pointing out the difficult jobs they do. Loves his country.

 

William Ayers:

While Oliver North was serving his country in the Marines, William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn (his wife) were doing and saying the following:

Ayers explained what the Weather Underground was all about: "Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at."

 

Both went underground after she was charged with instigating riots at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in 1968 and after several of their fellow Weatherman associates were killed when bombs they were building blew up in a Greenwich Village townhouse. One of those killed was Ayers girlfriend at the time, Diana Oughton. The group was planning to bomb Fort Dix Army Base in New Jersey.

 

Dohrn publicly celebrated the group's maiming of Chicago prosecutor Richard Elrod in the Chicago riots.

 

Following the mass murders of actress Sharon Tate and others by disciples of Charles Manson, Dohrn had this to say: "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach! Wild!"

 

Ayers participated in more than 30 bombings during his 11-year reign of underground terror. He says his only regret is not doing more to "bring the war home" to America. In an article he penned for the New York Times op-ed page ironically published Sept. 11, 2001, he wrote: "I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough."

 

Ayers had his picture taken in August, 2001 for a magazine article, where he is standing on an American flag.

 

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/August-2001/features_ayers1.jpg

 

As for who I would associate with, this isn't a hard decision for me.