The Debate

[scoutldr]

Why can't we have a McCain/Biden ticket?

 

My wife wants to vote for "T-bone" Pickens and Suze Orman. Too bad they're not running.

 

My biggest fear is that Obama will win because he's "not Republican", or he's "black" (but he's not really), and has promised the moon to the less ambitious among us. Nice sentiment, but that's not what the country needs right now. There are millions of cult followers who will vote for him without even knowing the issues.

 

The biggest questions I have are still unanswered:

Why did he associate with known terrorists and racist hate-mongers?

Why does he refuse to release his personal papers, tax returns and medical records?

Why did he write things in his books, if that's not REALLY what he believes?

Why are people being illegally harassed for mentioning his given name "Hussein"?

Why does Farrakhan refer to him as "The Messiah" and Obama does nothing to rebut it.

 

McCain's life is an open book. Sure, he's made mistakes. But he's man enough to admit it and move on. I don't agree with McC on a lot of issues, most recently the $700B bailout. But Obama just flat scares me.

 

Now, before I get flamed, I know there are those who have carefully analyzed the issues and arrived at an informed, educated decision. My hat's off to you and I wish you the best. But you are in the extreme minority.

[gwd-scouter]

"Now, before I get flamed, I know there are those who have carefully analyzed the issues and arrived at an informed, educated decision. My hat's off to you and I wish you the best. But you are in the extreme minority."

 

Who exactly is in the minority? Those that have made educated informed decisions regardless of whom we are supporting?

 

Or, those that are supporting the supposed Marxist Muslim (his middle name IS Hussein after all) who "pals" around with domestic terrorists and has things to hide in those tax and medical records? (oops, he did, in fact, release those records).

 

You don't want to be flamed, but you don't see it as being inflammatory yourself when you post this about Obama supporters: "There are millions of cult followers who will vote for him without even knowing the issues."

 

Cult followers? Wow.

[Lisabob]

There are plenty of reasons to like or dislike a candidate, and I'm not out to change anybody's mind here (since that seems unlikely to happen anyway).

 

But I would point out, scoutldr, that some of the things you ask about Obama can just as easily be asked about McCain.

 

McCain has not released a full medical file and in fact, gave a hand-picked group of reporters just a couple of hours to peruse over a thousand page of (un-numbered, out of sequence) medical records, without the ability to take notes or make copies on those records. At age 72 and with his medical history, I think that's less than re-assuring.

 

He has also "palled around" with people who had (at best) questionable values. This is the same fellow who worked side by side with folks who favored segregation and used incendiary language about racial minorities, for years. (Think, Robert Byrd, Jesse Helms, Strom Thurmond, among others - all committed racists at some points in their careers.)

 

More recently, he has not only associated with, but actually hired and paid the exact same folks who stooped to election-year tricks so dirty and beneath the dignity of the American process as to cause even fellow Republicans to howl in outrage. Notably, the same guys who cooked up the "black illegitimate baby" story in the 2000 primary to undermine McCain's campaign, now work for McCain. Not to mention the fact that at recent rallies, supporters have publicly called Obama a terrorist, a traitor, and shouted for his death. We're talking angry mobs here, folks, and this sort of thing rarely ends well. And the candidate McCain has done not one thing to attempt to put a lid on such dangerous talk. That's horrible for American democracy, no matter who wins.

 

I don't care if you like McCain or Obama, or not. I do care about being honest about what you expect from your candidates and how you evaluate the "other" guy. Me, I expected better from John McCain. He is a patriot and a bona fide hero, and he has served well as a US Senator most of the time. He has, at some points in his career, screwed up, but he has also had the grace and humility to admit it and seek to improve upon his weaknesses. What I'm seeing from him now though? It is very disappointing. He's better than this.

 

[packsaddle]

What might 'flame' McCain right now is that the 'swift boat' political approach isn't working except on HIS cult followers.

 

Like I've written long before this election got started, I am pessimistic about our future regardless of who is elected. The guy is going to take the steering wheel of the bus after it has been driven over the cliff by the previous driver.

The Bush administration and friends have left such a mess I think any words of optimism from any candidate qualify as unfulfillable promises. I'm not surprised by the intensity of the crisis we're in...I'm mostly surprised (as probably is John McCain) that it arrived so quickly, bad timing for McCain.

 

Obama's tax restructuring cannot possibly address the problems and McCain's is just more of the same idiotic nonsense that helped put us here in the first place. Both their timetables are simply fantasy. Neither candidate has the slightest hint of a real energy policy...if they know enough to form one, they're too politically timid to make it.

In the face of those issues alone, nearly everything else shrinks to insignificance. We're IN Iraq. We're going to continue to be IN Iraq. That won't change regardless of who is elected. The costs of the Bush fiascos are going to be visited on this next president and probably on future generations of presidents.

 

If Obama is elected, and it looks like he will by a large margin, he's going to be unable to fix this mess and he'll get the blame for it. Same with McCain. And neither of them will have been any more responsible for making the mess than the other was. The VP spot is almost not relevant. Palin, the pit bull with similar intellect, against Biden with foot and mouth disease. Who cares. Truly smart persons would run away from the oval office this time around.

If it was possible to somehow require the Bush administration to serve another term and then another and another, I'd go for it. I'm sure Bin Laden would agree.

[scoutingagain]

To be fair to scoutldr I believe he was referring to " those who have carefully analyzed the issues and arrived at an informed, educated decision." as those who are in the extreme minority.

 

I also have reservations about Obama. Mainly because I generally don't buy into the classic liberal, government is the answer philosophy. But at least the democrats are honest about that approach.

 

The Republicans as a party have a major credibility gap. You can't claim the mantel of fiscal responsibility and lead the country to a $500 billion deficit and $11 Trillion debt. You can't claim your for less government and then lead us into the biggest government intrusion into the private sector since the New Deal. You can't claim to be the party of "values" and run a campaign on hate mongering.

 

I have enormous respect for John McCain. I've voted for him in every primary. I too expected more from him. I'm afraid his ambition to be President has gotten the better of him. It's a shame because we really could use the John McCain from 2000.

 

So I will reluctantly cast my vote for Obama. Mainly because at this point things are so bad that the devil I don't know might be better than the devil I've seen the last 8 years. John McCain has done nothing to convince me he's a different kind of Republican than we've seen and he's done everything to convince me otherwise.

 

This is what one prominent McCain supporter who knew Obama at Harvard had to say about him in an article in the New York Times.(Yes I know a liberal rag unworthy of journalism.)

 

"I saw no evidence of a radical streak, either overt or covert, when we were together at Harvard Law School, said Bradford A. Berenson, who worked on the Harvard Law Review with Mr. Obama and who served as associate White House counsel under President Bush. Mr. Berenson, who is backing Mr. McCain, described his fellow student as a pragmatic liberal whose moderation frustrated others at the law review whose views were much farther to the left."

 

If Mr. Berenson's assessment is correct, I can live with that.

 

The entire article on Obama's association with William Ayers can be found at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/us/politics/04ayers.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1 .

 

SA

 

 

[Lisabob]

I wanted to clarify that my point about McC's associational relationship with the likes of Byrd, Thurmond, Helms, et. al, was not to suggest that McCain is therefore also a racist or that he "hates America" or something equally ridiculous, but rather to point out that it becomes very easy to paint with too broad a brush when drawing conclusions about someone based on who else they've been tenuously linked to in the past.

 

I do think this business of allowing your supporters to shout death threats against your opponents without rejoinder or reprimand is extremely disturbing though, and raises far more immediate questions about character and patriotism.

[packsaddle]

Sorry, I'm in a better mood now. Lisabob, I agree. Also with scoutingagain. I guess my problem is that I really DID buy into the whole Bush line when he started out after the 2000 election. I didn't vote for him but after he won, I really thought he would try to bring the country back together when he said he would. I should have been more cautious when I saw what Bush did to McCain in that primary. Then, after 9/11 I gave him the benefit of the doubt when he made his case to invade Iraq.

I guess I sort of blame myself in all this. I don't suffer fools lightly and liars, well, I have a special contempt for them. Bush gets the brass ring for both.

I wish I could be optimistic about our future for the next few years. I just can't.

[gwd-scouter]

I would have to agree that whomever is elected, he is unlikely to do much to fix the financial mess we are in. In that regard, I feel sorry for both men. It is doubtful that the next Pres. will serve more than one term. So who is up next in 2012? Palin vs. Clinton?

 

Watched news last night and McCain seems to have decided that some of the folks at his rallies have gone too far. One woman told McCain she was afraid of Obama and that he was an Arab. McCain took the microphone and told her "no Ma'am" and went on to say Obama was a decent man with whom McCain disagrees on issues and not someone she should be afraid of. Good for McCain, but I think the horse has left the barn. It may have been better if he had admonished Ms. Palin for her comment about Obama "palling around" with terrorists, which seems to have started all this.

 

Also last night I watched a new McCain ad calling Obama a liar. So, McCain is trying to reign in the nasty sentiment at his rallies, but his campaign is still putting out the negative ads.

 

I guess the candidates don't really "approve" their messages?

 

McCain from 2000? My husband was supporting him in the primaries back then. I tend to lean democrat, but I was giving him serious consideration. Yes, he was a different man then. I don't know what happened to him, especially in these past few weeks. I wonder where we would be today if he had won back then instead of W?

 

During the primaries when Obama won state after state, Clinton seemed desperate. McCain now seems desperate as the numbers grow in Obama's favor. Oddly similar - both Clinton during the primaries and McCain now thinking with disbelief - who is this guy and how can he be winning?(This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

[vol_scouter]

It is important to remember that Senators Byrd, Helms, and Thurmond were never terrorists. They were racists at least during part of their lives. McCain worked with them in the senate but he did not choose them as a member - all elected by others.

 

Obama worked with and for Ayers who is an unrepentant terrorist who hates this country. The comparison to McCain and other Senators does not hold water. McCain was one of the Keating 5 and was found to have exercised poor judgment. Obama listened to a racist anti-American minister for 20 years but I am asked to believe that he does not agree with those views. Obama campaigned for a Marxist, Odinga in Kenya. Obama sued banks for ACORN causing part of the current financial mess. ACORN is being investigated in several states for voter fraud. Obama worked for Ayers to bring radical education to American children.

 

I do not like McCain but as someone just wrote: Who is Obama? we know little of him. The more that is found out about him, the more I find that is disturbing. People are flocking to him because of the economic crisis (in my mind caused by congress - both parties and several presidents) even though he has never run a business or anything else except his campaign. I understand being angry at Republicans but I do not understand the reason to vote for Obama except for appeals to class envy.

[packsaddle]

Yes, I also noticed McCain's reaction at the rally. He must be experiencing mixed feelings...or else a realization that the negativity is backfiring.

 

My reasons for supporting Obama are related to education and science issues. But among the speculative and nebulous negatives that Charles Krauthammer listed recently, he also said this: "Obama is a man of first-class intellect and first-class temperament."

Coming from someone who can hardly be considered liberal, these are concrete, powerful reasons to consider Obama.

[Lisabob]

In the way of non-liberals endorsing Obama, Christopher Buckley (William F. Buckley's son and a regular columnist for the conservative National Review magazine that his father started) came out for Obama yesterday.

 

Vol, you are correct that Byrd, Thurmond, Helms, etc. were not directly implicated in terrorist acts. Some of them were Klan members though and we know that the Klan engaged in all sorts of racial violence. That is no better. Within the last year McCain has publicly lauded Thurmond as an "astute politician and [...] dedicated public servant."

 

Now we could, I suppose, argue about whether Thurmond's (sort of) change of heart late in his life qualifies him as a figure to be respected, or whether he remains a villain, or a relic of his times, or whatever. My point, though, is that here are several Senators with whom McCain did "pal around" and in some cases, whose coat tails McCain has attempted to ride upon (a la, praising THurmond at a South Carolina rally in an obvious attempt to get votes). If McCain's point about Bill Ayres is that people should fear Obama because of the fact that 35 years ago this guy did something practically everybody including Obama denounces, well then I think McCain had better look more carefully at his own associations first.

 

This kind of Kevin Bacon game in politics is ridiculous. What politician of any national prominence at all hasn't, at some point in their long careers, been tangentially linked to someone controversial? If associations are the only thing that matters then we'd best throw out all the bums, including McCain and Palin!

 

No, what matters is what the candidates say, do, and stand for. And for me, I'm mightily unimpressed with McCain/Palin's current hate-mongering. They're allowing racism to flourish right under their noses. They can't even express astonishment that things have turned so ugly because, frankly, they stirred up this mess and are smart enough that they should have known where it would lead. Thus it is clear to me that McCain RIGHT NOW, TODAY, HIMSELF, is willing to do anything to win, even to the point of allowing people to incite racial and ethnic violence.

 

What McCain and Palin are doing now is pandering to the worst elements of American society, just in a desperate ploy to win (or not lose so badly). That's not honorable and that's not leadership. I had thought better of McCain than this.

[vol_scouter]

Lisabob,

 

You are right in the sense that Byrd has never apologized for his involvement with the Klan. The other 2 were not that I am aware Klan members. Senator Thurmond and Helms were apologetic for some of their earlier stances, Ayers is not and in fact recently was photographed standing on a flag and in an interview said that he wished that he had done more. There is no comparison between the 2 cases. If you use your criteria of truthfulness, you can't vote for Obama either. As for racism, James Carville threatened the US with widespread riots if Obama loses. Neither candidate seems to be what the country needs at this time but Obama has too many bad relationships that are not casual for my tastes.

 

As a member of the healing arts profession, seeing a video in which Obama speaks against a Illinois bill (and later voted against) that would require medical treatment for a baby that has survived an abortion - I can not never support and I cannot understand how anyone can. I am not against all abortions but if the baby (this is no longer a fetus) has no right to medical care then we are a reprehensible society. Obama is not a fit leader and McCain is poor choice as well.

[Lisabob]

Vol,

 

There are mixed records regarding Thurmond's repudiation of his earlier (clearly racist) stances. I don't know what he felt in his heart, obviously.

 

My point was, and remains, that if McCain and his followers want to try to make the case that Obama is somehow less than honorable, or even dangerous, based on limited associations with other people (rather than based on the candidate's own views and actions on relevant issues), then neither McCain nor pretty much any other politician should get a pass on the basis of their past associations, however remote, themselves. Now that's clearly a somewhat ridiculous position (to say McCain is a racist because he associated with racists), but that's my point re: Obama too. Obama is certainly no terrorist and, like or dislike him, he's not "dangerous" to the point that people ought to be afraid for America if he's elected.

 

Now what I have found problematic is McCain's tacit acceptance of the sort of talk where McC's supporters shout racial slurs and yell for violent attacks against his opponent. That's not the best of American democratic tradition and McC should be ashamed. Judging from the fact that, in the last 24 hours McCain has begun to pull back from such rhetoric, perhaps he actually has the grace to BE ashamed. But he can't have it both ways. He can't say that he wants to run a respectful campaign, and then also play the same crazy ads and encourage his lap (pit bull) dog Palin to say the same outrageous things at the same time.

[vol_scouter]

Much of the public is tired of the main stream media ignoring valid concerns about Obama. The ads from the McCain-Palin campaign raise valid concerns that the main stream media refuses to investigate in any meaningful manner. I totally agree that in a long career politicians will make meet and have their photo made with all sorts of people. Jimmy Carter had his photo made with a donor who was later found to be kidnapping children, killing them, and burying them under his house. Carter was not and should not have been held responsible. As far as the 3 senators that you brought up, only Byrd is unrepentant. Byrd is a colleague of Obama in the senate but I do not think that Obama would support those actions as you point out Senator McCain doesn't reflect the values of Helms or Thurmond.

 

Many in the public are angry about the mainstream media's sexism toward Governor Palin. Many wish to see teams of reporters and attorneys investigating Obama's involvement with Ayers, Odinga, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, ACORN, and the Berg suit like they have done to Governor Palin. Many feel that Obama is the one not properly vetted and many are truly scared of the man. He promises 'change' but the change exploits class envy, re-distributes wealth - that is Socialism or perhaps Marxism. He is scary!

 

You did not address him being against providing medical care for a baby that survives an abortion. He said that it might be "inconvenient" for the mother and voted against the bill 4 times. The baby is now a separate living being who he wishes to deny medical care. That is inhuman!

 

Obama is scary and not fit to be president.

 

 

[packsaddle]

vol_scouter,

Speaking of 'scary'....So, Obama gets elected president, and it's looking very likely that he will. What will you do? Are you in agreement with those others who are making outbusts at McCain rallies?