Religion/Sexuality

[packsaddle]

Hal, that can only happen if someone is ignorant or else engaging in an attempt at deception.

OK, I'll be fair to Reagan - the botanical definition often does not agree with a nutritionist's definition of a fruit. I think you will agree that what you might savor as 'vegetable soup' is mostly composed of 'fruits' under the strict botanical definition...that being fruit defined as a ripened ovary.

Not exactly the most savory definition but scientifically and developmentally accurate. Worse, in the case of a tomato, we are mostly eating placenta tissue. Bon Apptit!

 

OGE, your information is accurate. Unfortunately it is unlikely to have much effect on those disposed to prejudice or homophobia.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[OldGreyEagle]

well pack, when you think about it, eating a "blue" rare steak is pretty much munching on dead animal flesh, then again, eating a well cooked steak is pretty much the same thing.

 

The priest who sexually abused me back in the 7th grade was a pediphile, he wasnt gay, he never had sex, as far as I know, with another adult male, just little boys. It has always made me feel creepy lumping in all gays with that monster, he wasnt gay, he was a pediphile. OK, not a pediphile, someone will no doubt correct me and say its not Pediphilia since I was an adolescent at the time and thats another term, but whether you say Venture Crew or Venturing Crew, I am not sure that fine a distinction is enough to gripe about(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

[NickP412]

i didnt know in our own ranks there were so many who sympathized with gays?

 

the way i see it is Gay is sin and isnt reverent.

 

im only 17 and not as mature as some of you. i knew people outside BSA thought we were bad for not letting gays in but i thought of all places inside the BSA people all were against gays in scouts. it seems like a huge saftey concern to me as well as a moral problem that is opposite of the message we are trying to provide

[GernBlansten]

Well, Nick, the way I see it is homosexuals are no more or less dangerous to our youth than heterosexuals. In fact, all the evidence I've seen show heteros as more dangerous. I also don't think its a choice, but something you just are. And as for the morality issues, most of those are denomination specific regarding homosexuality. Since BSA doesn't favor one religion over another, specific morality shouldn't be a barrier for membership.

 

The way I see it, is it makes about as much sense to ban homosexuals as it would be to ban left handed people. And the existing ban has done great harm to the BSAs ability to enjoy access to public resources at ridiculously reduced prices.

[vol_scouter]

Gern,

 

I think that young Nick is correct. Although 'heterosexuals' may make up the largest number of sexual assaults, they are by far the largest group. When adjusted for the total estimated numbers, my understanding is that homosexual are much more likely to sexually assault someone of the same sex. As for the heterosexuals having sex with someone of their own sex, if it is not a crime of dominance then the label of heterosexual is questionable. They may be bisexual or a closet homosexual. One way or the other, homosexuality does not fit with morally straight and does not represent a healthy lifestyle as most practice it for youth to emulate. The BSA reflects the view of many (for what I have experienced, the vast majority) of its' members in the stands.

[skeptic]

I find it somewhat interesting to see Nick's comments. A few years back I breached the subject to a small group of my older scouts, over 16, who asked about an incident where a guy verbally attacked us at a public event. Their response was just about the same as Nick's.

 

Whether or not a few individuals will continue to insist that this is not representative, everything I see in schools and actual interaction shows a discomfort and choice NOT to interact by a large majority.

 

On the other hand, most of the same individuals will state that those who do make that choice have that right and should be left to pursue it as they choose. They just need to keep to themselves about it.

 

Take it as it is written. Reality is too often overlooked for the pushing a political agenda.

 

Nough said.

[Hal_Crawford]

vol and skeptic:

Don't know where you are but it is different here. Most of our scouts are comfortable around gays. We lost a very good scout a few years ago because he objected to the membership policies. A couple of our scouts have expressed that they are troubled by the policies as their religions teach acceptance of gays. They choose to remain in scouting because of the program.

Hal

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

You know Hal, it just doesn't come up with our scouts. I don't think they really care, one way or another. As it should be. This is an adult issue. And frankly, outside the fundamentalist religious members, it isn't an issue. At least not in my experience.

[evmori]

I'm not a "fundamentalist religious member" Gern and it is an issue for me.

[Mr. Boyce]

It would be disingenuous to downplay the differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals. This includes much more risky sexual behaviors, more drug abuse, more crime and violence.

 

Simply because we live in an era in which homosexuality has become a divisive issue does not give us the right to wash away the truths involved here in the interest of peaceful feelings.

[OldGreyEagle]

I guess it helps if we define "fundamentalist religious member", or define any of the terms we talk about, such as "Family Values" or "Traditional American Values". They mean so many different things for so many different people. I was talkig to my brother the other night. He learned ancient Greek so he could read scripture in the language it was written to by pass translation difficulties.

 

We were talking about modern culture when he made a comment on the perversity of today's culture and I asked him how did he define perversion, he went into a long explanation and when he was done, I said I thought perversion was anything you wouldnt do yourself, he did laugh.

 

SAying someone is a Fundamentalist in a Religious sense seems to be regarded as a taunt, yet in NFL training camps all across the country, young men have come together to drill on the fundamentals of football. Just drafted rookies will be judged on their talent and how well the exhibit blocking, and tackling. The fundamentals of the game.

 

In baseball, teams can be described as being a good solid fundamental team. They almost always score the runner from third with less than two out. Players who are solid fundamentally are sought out.

 

In basketball, fundamentals are king. Can you dribble with both hands? Drive to the right or the left both? Hit free throws consistently? (What if Shaq had a 80% freethrow record?)

 

Could our friend Kudu be called a Fundamentalist of Scouting?

[NickP412]

now maybe ive been listening to rush limbaugh and bill o'reily a little to much but i really think people choose to be gay. if you say being gay is something your born with then you must also say being a thief, killer, pedophile kidnapper etc are things your born with. maybe something happened in their childhood to make them that way, i dont know but i dont think they were born that way.

[OldGreyEagle]

I realize I must come off as an enigma, I think I am pretty conservative, but then again, I have had plenty of people label me as a liberal. I like to think of myself as being able to look at a situation and judge for myself what I think about it.

 

I have known many gay people. And When I say gay I mean males and females. Many say they knew from their earliest memories they should have been the "other". Some gay males talk of being drawn to dolls, and sewing, while some gay females talk about being drawn to construction toys, and being outside and camping and rough and tumble sports. Are they all telling untruths? My son was born with epispadias, its a form of extrophy. We have scouts in the troop who have MS, a nerve disorder. The guy who bagged my purchases at Target last night was born without a left hand. We have at least one Asperger's scout in the Troop and possibly two more who have not been diagnosed. In such a world where nature has not shown itself to be perfect, cannot the possibility of homosexuality be a variant from the norm?

 

And yes, there are mental problems, Pyromaniacs outside of Scout camps, Child molestors, kleptomaniacs, etc. A Society has an obligation to keep those who would harm its members from inclusion in it, but just how does two consenting adults making love harm society?

[GernBlansten]

Nick, that is were we depart. Homosexuality is not criminal. Therefore, they should not be treated as criminals.

 

I coin the term fundamentalist in the spirit of those who take their religious texts, not as compilation of man's understanding of God, but as the direct infallible word of God without man's interpretation. The problem with this approach, is that the text doesn't always fit the agenda, so things get twisted, left out and misrepresented. Jesus never talked of homosexuality. But it is referenced in the Old Testament, along side damnation by eating pork and shrimp or blending the threads of linen and wool. Both of which are allowed in BSA rules or at least not banned.

 

[packsaddle]

Judge Jones, in his finding of fact in the Kitzmiller decision, noted that 'fundamentalism' began in the late 19th century, largely in response to the emergence of evolutionary science. This is also noted in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Fundamentalism

and I found it interesting that some less-'fundamental' Christian flavors prefer to use the term, 'extremist' in place of 'fundamentalist'. Isn't it great how religion brings us all together?