Religion/Sexuality

[Rooster7]

Yeah he would have been a cub scout, but talking about archery and camping in cub scouts? I really would like to meet that cubmaster. I'm with Beavah, looks like somebody trollin

 

Exactly - apparently I was just a bit too subtle for some folks. In short, I agree - But hey, I'm just being rude.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[OldGreyEagle]

Just a thought, being "rude" is a matter of prespective. I remember a few times as a youth adult leaders would say. "I am going to talk to you like a Dutch Uncle" and then be very rude. I remember my father saying about his friends, well you know, Gus is a plain spoken man, he calls a spade a spade when actually Gus would call a spade a @!!**@ shovel, but I digress.

 

Just because someone is rude does not negate their thoughts, ideas, or contributions.

[Gold Winger]

It all comes down to the modern idea that every child needs to be able to belong to everything. Soccer, band, Boy Scouts, the Yhatzee club . . . the idea of excluding anyone from anything is just horrific. Everyone is special so no one is special.

 

The grounds for exclusion really don't matter, the fact is that you are excluded from something that you wanted to join. I never lettered in a sport in high school, so I was excluded from the letterman's club on the basis of talent. I can't join the VFW because I was ubnfortunate enough to miss the wars which means that I was fortunate enough to not get shot at. I belong to Mensa which discriminates to the degree that very, very few people can join.

 

Why do so many homosexuals and atheists want to join the Boy Scouts? I'm sure that it isn't for ready access to young men or to convert them into godless unbelievers. It is because BSA has built a reputation and if you earn the honors that BSA offers, it opens doors for a young man. Rather than forming their own organization and trying to build its reputation and status, they'd rather complain.

 

Homosexuals in the troop? As long as he isn't wearing tights and makeup at troop meetings and someone isn't afraid to share a tent with him, I'm not too concerned.

 

Atheists? Most atheists that I've known are as bad as the evangelical Christians for getting in your face. I don't need or want that.

[DYB-Mike]

Folks,

 

Im not weighing in on whether this poster is trolling or not, but using archery and camping as evidence that this guy was not a Cub Scout is inconclusive.

 

How many of your Cubs practiced archery at Cub Day Camp (mine did)? Our Pack, from Tigers on up, family camps at least once a year.

 

YIS,

Mike

 

[eagle77]

Mike,

You are right, but my thinking tells me that he may be quite a bit older. For along time Cub Scouts were not able to do these types of things. The only cubs you saw were webelos scouts out trying to camp with a boy scout troop to graduate to. If he was there for two years I think he would have known he was in a pack and not a troop. Again I could be wrong.

[Rooster7]

Gold Winger,

 

Atheists? Most atheists that I've known are as bad as the evangelical Christians for getting in your face. I don't need or want that.

 

Im a little disappointed by this broad and unflattering brush. Ill let the atheists defend themselves - But speaking as an Evangelical Christian, I think the above statement is a false stereotype, if not outright bigoted.

 

Are there some Evangelical Christians that lack tact and the common sense to know when proselytizing has become harassment? Yes.

 

Do some Evangelical Christians seem to take delight in telling unbelievers the bad news vice the Good News? Yes. Every group has a subgroup and not everyone is a true believer.

 

Having said that, most Evangelical Christians I know share the Gospel because theyre taught by Gods Word to love their neighbor as themselves.

 

Sorry for the sidetrack. But being an offended party, I felt entitled to address the offense.

 

[Trevorum]

I think the extremes within both groups are comparable. Kinda full circle obnoxiousness.

[Gold Winger]

Rooster, sorry if you're offended but that's been my experience. Any time a casual acquaintance opens every conversation by asking if you've been saved or by reciting some passage from the bible, it irks me.

[Rooster7]

Hey, it was late in the day and work was going slow - perhaps I was more bored than offended. Peace. John 3:16 ;-) Sorry...couldn't resist.

[Jei64822]

Heh heh, I will admit, you got me there with the whole cub scout/boyscout and activities thing. The truth is, I was only a cub (apparently) scout for one day, making popsicle stick picture frames. I quit the day after. But yes, the other stories from the 1st graders were true. Is my memory just bad or do little kids just embellish? Your call. The reason I lied was because I felt it was the only way to even get a view, instead of people saying "Well, if you were in the BSA, you would know that soonsoforth". I apologize for lying, but I assure you I am not trying to agitate people here. I just want a straightforward answer.

 

I guess the underlying question is this: Do you agree with the exclusion of homosexuals/atheists? Do you think that these groups are less "moral" or "deserving"? Do you feel you are biased against/have prejudices against the two groups?

 

My question regards the actual BSA less than it regards the current social issues at hand.

 

The question is NOT: Does the BSA have the right to exclude? Which is obviously a yes. I am not disputing that.

[Trevorum]

I really should know better than to feed the trolls, but ...

 

You ask, "Do you agree with the exclusion of homosexuals/atheists? Do you think that these groups are less "moral" or "deserving"? Do you feel you are biased against/have prejudices against the two groups?"

 

The answer is, some Scouters on these boards will say, "Yes", and some will say, "No". Just like asking, "Do you believe we should entrust the GOP with four more years?"

 

[packsaddle]

Trev, you'll notice that up to now I've resisted this thread but I want to offer you some reassurance.

When I lecture, in the larger classes I sometimes encounter a 'troll', a student whose intent is to be argumentative for the sake of wasting time or some similar purpose. I have found the best approach to be never to assume anything about their motives. Rather, I try to respond sincerely as if the questions are themselves sincere. In time, trolls eventually reveal themselves or convert to real students. Other students help with this through peer pressure but that's not the same for a forum like this. So I support your engagement in this conversation.

 

That said, Jei64822, regarding your statement, "I apologize for lying, but...."

As Fritz Perls used to say, everything in front of the 'but' is B.S. Once you've compromised your honesty, it is almost impossible to regain others' confidence. And yours is suspect in my mind.

 

[Trevorum]

ahh, you're right. That was discourteous of me. I apologize.

[DeanRx]

Jei states - "I guess the underlying question is this: Do you agree with the exclusion of homosexuals/atheists? Do you think that these groups are less "moral" or "deserving"? Do you feel you are biased against/have prejudices against the two groups?"

 

******************************************************************

 

Its actually 3 questions, so I'll try and answer them in order...

 

1) Do you agree with the exclusion of homosexuals / atheists?

 

Answer: Unfortunately, yes I do. Its not that I have an issue with someone from either group. Its not that I'm afraid that either will try to "convert" my child to their way of thinking. I would like to think that an atheist or homosexual could be in the scouting group (specifically our group) without causing concern. However, the reality of the situation is that most likely the ones that want to join do so because they have an AGENDA to push. Fine. I just don't want that agenda presented to my son.

 

Its the same as the Gay Marriage issue here in California. My issue is not with gays being married. I personally don't feel it "downgrades" my own heterosexual marriage. My issue is that once it is "normalized" in society, then I (and my family) have to endure the GAY AGENDA that accompanies it. This means that my child has to be subjected to homosexuality talks in sex-ed class in school, we have to endure two males or two females 'making out' on a park bench while trying to enjoy a day in the park - that was a fun discussion on the way home....(whether or not this coincides with my personal beliefs).

 

My issue with gays and athiests is that if their representative groups were as concerned with MY rights to not have them use "in your face" tactics as they are about advancing their agendas, then I wouldn't have an issue with them.

 

2) Do I personally think both groups are immoral? You bet. Do I dislike them because of their views? No. Are gays or atheists any less "deserving" (to use your term)? No. By virture of being decent humans, they are just as deserving as anyone else of respect and acceptance.

 

But I am offended by the idea that just because I voice my opinion that they are immoral and because of this I should be allowed to shield my child from their influence, I am often called "not open" or more often labelled by said groups as a racist.

 

I find it curious that gays and atheists pronounce that they want general society's "acceptance". Thats all they are after. Yet both groups have no problem trouncing on other people's freedom of thought to advance the freedom of their own convictions.

 

3) Do you feel you are biased against/have prejudices against the two groups?"

 

Answer: No, I don't. But I'd be willing to bet there are members of both these groups that would say I do have a bias / prejudice against them because of the views I have stated above.

 

Bottom line, Do I hate or dislike people in either of these groups? No.

 

Do I wish them any ill will? No.

 

Do I get in their face about their beliefs? Heck No.

 

Do I think they should be able to live their life as they see fit? Yes.

 

Do I think I should be able to live MY life as I see fit and instill MY values on my children? YES !

 

Do I think they should be allowed to influence my child by their interations with him? HELL NO.

 

Do I think I have a right to stand up against what I believe is an attempt to influence my child via interacting with him in a private organization? HELL YES.

 

The rub is in the last two rehtorical questions. I see it as standing up for what I believe in and what I want my child to be protected from. Others see it as a discriminatory practice and see me as a racist because if it.

 

Guess I'm guilty as charged.

 

DeanRx(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

[sherminator505]

I find a number of these arguments interesting.

 

I find it interesting that some like to talk about a gay agenda, when the only agenda they seem to have is equality. I'm sure a lot of white people spoke similarly about the black agenda a century ago. At that time, after significant argument I'm sure, the BSA moved forward as an integrated organization. That proved to be the right thing to do, and represents the best of Scouting's tradition.

 

I find it interesting that the "immorality" of homosexuals is cited as a reason for exclusion, but a similar standard is not imposed for remarried divorcees. In the gospels, one of these groups is mentioned on more than one occasion, the other not at all. This is a contradiction that might make some uncomfortable, but it exists nonetheless.

 

I find it interesting that those would condemn homosexuality as a "lifestyle choice" probably can't pinpoint when they chose to be heterosexual because they've "always known." Think that logic through.

 

I find it interesting that some are more concerned with those who are "openly gay" than they are with those who hide it. Frankly, I would find the former to be more trustworthy and brave. After all, those who admit to being gay expose themselves to discrimination and, in some cases, violence.

 

I'm straight, and I've always known it. I know that many things are considered immoral, and that in moments of weakness I have been guilty of a few, but I always strive to do better and to remove the plank from my own eye first. I don't easily dismiss the efforts of a minority to attain equality as an "agenda," but I do tend to dismiss those who resort to such intellectually lazy language to diminish a dissenting point of view in the absence of factual support.