Religion/Sexuality

[Jei64822]

This may or may not have been done to death, but the search function does not seem to work. I do have a few questions for you however.

 

1. The official BSoA site states:

 

""We know there are gay scouts," says Scout spokesman Jeff Jubelirer. "Of course there are. We don't care. Nobody cares." He describes the national organization's policy as a variation of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy."

 

If "nobody" cares about gay/non religious members, why would they not be allowed to let this be known if asked?

---------------------------------------

 

2. The official BSoA site states (1 line down):

 

But the Boy Scouts, who require a belief in God and therefore also "discriminate" against atheists, are not comfortable with the idea of openly homosexual men leading young boys into the woods.

 

Are homosexual men more prone to being pedophiles? Could a leader who is a woman not be a pedophile?

---------------------------------------

 

3. And now a hypothetical question:

 

If there were atheist/gay boys in your troop, and they did not out themselves as such, but you knew they were, would you feel uncomfortable or take action to remove them?

----------------------------------------

 

4. Moral question:

 

What do you think the original scouting organizations hoped to accomplish by denouncing homosexuality and atheism? What are your views on homosexuals/atheists? Do you think we should be enforcing a century old rule which blatantly excludes normal boys? Or is it time for the Scouting organizations to follow suit with the rest of the world and at least try to be more open?

[Stosh]

Yes, you're right, it's been hashed and rehashed to death. BSA has specific moral stances and adheres to them. If one doesn't like what that means, find an organization that one prefers instead. BSA seems to be satisfied with what it stands for, has stood for for almost 100 years, and probably isn't going to change in yours or my lifetimes. Give it a rest.

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

Yah, Jei64822, most one-time posters here who want to get into this kind of discussion are just trollin', eh? If you're interested, you can find this rehashed again and again in the "Issues and Politics" forum.

 

On the off chance you're really interested for some other reason than being an outsider trolling someone else's board, yeh can send me a personal message with your reason for askin' and I'll reply because a Scout is Helpful. But yeh have to avoid the sort of biased, judgmental comments you make in #4, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[DeanRx]

Jei-

 

I understand your question and I hope its coming from a good place, not just to stir the pot...

 

A couple considerations:

 

1) BSA is NOT a public organization. It has held up on multiple challenges to the level of the Supreme Court that BSA is a PRIVATE organization. As such, it is free to "discriminate" (to use your term) in its recruitment and retainment practices as it sees fit. If it gets too far outside 'societal' norms, then it will loose members based on people choosing not to participate. The US Supreme Court has found in BSA's favor multiple times in the past 2 decades. This includes challenges on religion vs atheism, challenges on sexual orientation, AND challenges on admitting females.

 

As another poster stated, if you don't care for those positions, then go join (or start) a group that has different views.

 

2) With regards to the religion aspect, Baden Powell was EXTREMELY precise in his guidance to scouts when he founded the organization. He basically believed that a person without an acceptance of a higher power can not and will not grow to reach their full potential in life and thus will not become the best citizen possible.

 

Hey, BSA doesn't say you have to believe this line of thinking. They're just saying if you want to be in their organization you have to have a faith.

 

Now to the practicle application. Do we go around inquiring about member's orientation? - No. Do we question their spirituality? - No. If someone "outs" themselves as gay or an atheist would they subject themselves to being asked to leave? - Probably. So in that regard its a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. I figure that when dealing with youth in the ages we see in scouting, avoiding conversations about both subjects is the best course of action. If I was approached by a scout on either a sexuality or religion question - I would tend to re-direct them back to their parent(s) or legal guardian, or to a proper adult able to help them decifer their questions (i.e. clergy for religion or doctor, school counselor for sexuality issues).

 

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but in my book there are only TWO adults that should be talking to my kids about either subject (my wife and I). There are only TWO youths I will discuss such topics with (my children).

 

Some within BSA would say a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy would be the way to approach these issues. Others would say stand firm on the issues.

 

Fortunately or unfortunately - BSA is NOT a democracy. It doesn't matter what my personal views are, it doesn't matter what a district or council executives views are - we are charged with providing a program to BSA standards. BSA has leadership who's job it is to set policy. They have set it. If a member doesn't like it, then they can vote with their feet.

 

If enough members vote with their feet, then the organization fails. However, BSA has held fast to these policies (built on beliefs and faith) for nearly 100 years and it hasn't died yet. Don't hold your breath thinking it will die in the next 100 years because if these issues.

 

I find it curious that when society "changes" then the view of the organization is automatically accused of not being "open" enough. Its not about "openness" its about character, integrity and being morally right. Those concepts never become outdated.

 

Respectfully,

 

DeanRx

[Trevorum]

I think it's good to stir the pot now and then.

 

But Beav is right, this sort of discussion belongs in our "Issues" forum.

[Kudu]

DeanRx writes:

 

"2) With regards to the religion aspect, Baden Powell was EXTREMELY precise in his guidance to scouts when he founded the organization. He basically believed that a person without an acceptance of a higher power can not and will not grow to reach their full potential in life and thus will not become the best citizen possible."

 

If Baden-Powell was "EXTREMELY precise" about kicking boys out of Scouting because they don't believe in God, then it should be easy to find that rule, shouldn't it?

 

A 17MB (72 dpi) scan of the 1938 Canadian version of Baden-Powell's Policy, Organisation, & Rules (the last one he personally edited) can be found online at the following URL.

 

http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_72dpi.pdf

 

An easier to read 70 MB (150 dpi) version can be found at:

 

http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_150dpi.pdf

 

The reason that Baden-Powell did NOT kick children out of Scouting because of their religious beliefs (or lack there-of) was that in his view a boy could not help becoming the "best possible citizen" if he studied Scoutcraft (the "Religion of the Back Woods") and Public Service (sometimes called "Practical Christianity"). See:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

The taunt that if you don't like the BSA's religious polices you can go join (or start) a group that has different views is disingenuous because Congress is widely interpreted as having established the BSA religious corporation with protection against competition by international Scouting associations that offer Scouting the way that Baden-Powell intended it to be done.

 

Details of a significant challenge to the BSA's monopoly on American Scouting by "YouthScouts" can be found at:

 

http://youthscouts.org/districtcourt.html

 

Even if the legal peril of establishing a free marketplace for Scouting in the United States is removed, it may not change much.

 

The reason that the BSA's policies are what they are is because in the last hundred years liberal churches have NEVER established BSA Scout Troops (or rival Scout-like associations like the "Royal Rangers") in any significant numbers.

 

Simply put, establishing Scout Troops in the United States is a conservative impulse. This is the opposite of countries like Germany! Rather than complaining about the BSA's membership policies, unravel this enigma and you may have accomplished something.

 

Kudu

[acco40]

Kudos to Kudu. Now does someone want to get into a discussion about Baden-Powells "boy friend" or why he had headaches immediately after he married his his wife, 32 year younger than him, and then they disappeared two years later after he established separate sleeping quarters?

 

Yes the Supreme Court determined that the BSA was a private organization and as such could establish membership rules that they saw fit. The Supreme Court has also made many rulings on abortion, slavery, privacy and a host of other issues where there is no universal agreement.

[NJCubScouter]

Jei, could you give the exact links for the quotes in #1 and #2 of your post? The BSA web site is a big place. I would not be surprised if a BSA spokesman said what you said in #1, although if he did, I don't think he meant exactly what you apparently think he meant. I would, however, be very surprised if any official BSA spokesperson or site said what you say in #2, especially the part about men and boys in the woods. That is not the official justification for the policy on gay leaders.

 

But I'm willing to be proven wrong, if you can.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It's from the bsalegal.org blawg, reprinting an editorial from Investor's Business Daily:

http://www.bsalegal.org/bsa-legal-blawg-200.asp?i=103

 

Line #2 is the author of the (unsigned) editorial speaking, though the BSA legal blawg consistently only puts up stories that paint them in a good light, so they appear to approve of that editorial to some extent. In my opinion, the BSA tacitly approves of other people making the "gays = predators" argument on their behalf; they didn't use it in court because it's a bad legal argument. But soon after Bob Mazzuca was announced as CEO, he was asked about the gay issue and his answer was about gays as predators.

 

I think that interview with Mazzuca is here, but I can't hear the sound so I'm not sure if it's the one I saw before:

http://cbs11tv.com/video/?id=21240@ktvt.dayport.com

[Jei64822]

Because of the surprising amount of answers, I will not be able to respond to every single message, but don't take it as a sign of me ignoring you. One person asked for links to the statements, and here it is:

 

http://www.bsalegal.org/bsa-legal-blawg-200.asp?i=103

 

As for the commonly repeated saying that the BSA is not a public organization and as such does not HAVE to allow these groups in, my question is not that it is un-lawful or not, but is it morally correct in your opinion? Do you think it is right to discriminate (I use the term somewhat loosely in this context), these other groups from the BSA? Would you personally be worried about atheists and homosexuals in your organization?

__________________________________________

 

As for the whole "don't ask don't tell" policy, if you are willing to turn a blind eye on non ousted atheists/homosexuals, what is the difference if they are publicly atheist/homosexual?

___________________________________________

 

And about the trolling thing, I am just curious and wanted answers from actual people in the scouting community rather than some lawyer who typed up some HTML. I was a former boy scout when I was in the first grade, because I heard of all the kids at school talk about what they did with their troops, whether it was camping, archery, or any of that cool stuff. I was genuinely interested, and joined and stayed for 2 years before I moved out of town. Since then, I heard of the "discrimination" by the BSA, so I decided to look into it.

[Rooster7]

So you joined the Boy Scouts in the first grade, eh? Because you had heard about all of those great camping trips that the other first graders were having? Nice story. I like the part about how "camping, archery, or any of that cool stuff" had drawn you in to Scouting touching, almost believable. You may have a career in creative writing. When you were Scouting about at the ages of 7, 8, and 9 - did you ever hear the saying, "A Scout is Trustworthy? Perhaps not.

[Jei64822]

"So you joined the Boy Scouts in the first grade, eh? Because you had heard about all of those great camping trips that the other first graders were having? Nice story. I like the part about how "camping, archery, or any of that cool stuff" had drawn you in to Scouting touching, almost believable. You may have a career in creative writing. When you were Scouting about at the ages of 7, 8, and 9 - did you ever hear the saying, "A Scout is Trustworthy? Perhaps not. "

 

Why would you think I am lying about my childhood? I am quite fond of those memories. What it seems to me is that you are avoiding my questions. Please be respectful or do not answer at all.

[scoutldr]

I'm sure you meant to say "Cub Scouts". Boy Scout joining age has always been 11 (or 6th grade). Sorry for the rudeness of the others.

 

It's my opinion that the BSA would have changed over time, however it could not survive the backlash from some of its largest benefactors, the conservative religious organizations. The Girl Scouts USA never had that conundrum, since they don't use the "Chartered Organization" concept. Each troop is independent and reports only to the Council. A member's sexual or religious orientation is simply not an issue for them, and it doesn't seem to have harmed the organization any.

 

Interesting...as I write this, there is a Google ad (with racy picture) in the margin for "GayCupid.com", right above the picture of Green Bar Bill. There HAS to be a way to block those...

[OldGreyEagle]

Perhaps our new friend jei4822 should research the memebrship numbers of Girls Scouts and let us know about the trend there, where relion and sexual preference are not an issue. It would seem to be a good control group.

 

The BSA is a private organization as has been stated, when its membership wants to change, it will. Augusta National is males only and continues to be males only, they are private as well. I admire the BSA for the ability to stand up for what it beleives. I do think it will change if only because the BSA like all institutions change over time and reflect the values of its members. When? I have no idea

[eagle77]

Yeah he would have been a cub scout, but talking about archery and camping in cub scouts? I really would like to meet that cubmaster. I'm with Beavah, looks like somebody trollin.