Rules and Values (again...)

[OldGreyEagle]

One could say that these two are all over each other like an E.Coli colony on a piece of unrefrigerated chicken that has been out in the sun for 12 hours, but that gets long.

 

Going after each other like Ed and Merlyn discussing anything is much shorter

 

The problem is, both sides, Beavah and BobWhite, have definite strengths and talents that serve Scouting well. Once we get to this point, however cognitive comprehension begins to fail and while I am one to eschew obfuscation, I must embrace the moment to rationalize thought

[CA_Scouter]

OGE, as the thought police seem to be in full force in this thread, I'd like to point out that your 'E-Coli/chicken' scenario is likely a violation of some BSA rule somewhere, and your mere mention of it quite plainly points out your endorsement of the activity.

 

Shame on thee!

 

You've ignored your training and should resign from the BSA immediately.

 

;-)

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Fie, Fie I say on thee my sir, why do you search to vex me?

 

May a mole of unrepentant Giardia lamblia inhabit your next uncooked meal

 

 

[BadenP]

I don't know Bob but I have no trouble following Beavahs premise but your constant attacks, changing the scenarios, and dodging his questions is also rather obvious that you are avoiding being put on the spot and answering a question plainly that can't be answered with a BSA resource quote. IMHO Beavah looks at situations that occur in the field and you use solely examples from your reading and training which makes me wonder how much actual experience do you have working with youth, your answers seem to indicate very little.

 

Now while I don't always agree with Beavah he often hits the nail on the head with a variety of issues and when you can't find a resource quote to refute him you attack with innuendo and smoke screens. But it does make good entertainment even though it's not very scoutlike.

Battle on Bob, lol.

[hot_foot_eagle]

BW writes:

 

"Do I knowingly violate the rules of any organization I belong to or thosde of my community? No

 

Do I think choosing to violate these rules simply beacuse they are personally inconvenient show a lack of personal values and ethics? Yes I do. "

 

 

To which I ask:

 

How would you reconcile your ethical conflict on those rare occasions where the rules of the organization and the rules of the community are in conflict?

 

Is it possible that morals, ethics, and values are constants and that the situation dictates which action is the ethical one?

 

 

(edited for clarity)(This message has been edited by hot_foot_eagle)

[evmori]

Hey hey hey! I resemble all those remarks!

 

I am enjoying watching Bob dance all around Beavah's questions & yelling foul! He should go on Dancing With the Stars! He would win the Two Step!

 

It seems Beavah wants some answers to direct questions & as usual, Bob refuses by claiming some questions are too personal or by accusing Beavah of going off topic! What Bob fails to realize he does the exact same thing he accuses Beavah of doing! But I would bet he doesn't see it that way.

 

Would someone repost this so Bob will see it since he has me on ignore.

 

Thanks

 

[Gold Winger]

BeeDubya wimpered, "You are a master of the flim flam, you alter course continually to try and negate the response to the original question you ask."

 

And I say, "Nay BeeDubya, you are the great master of avoidance and misdirection. You never did answer the direct question of 'if someone walks up and hands you a sawbuck for your unit, can you accept it?'"

 

Gotta laugh!

[ScoutMomSD]

okay lets talk about the "gay" value - Canada has openly gay scouts:

 

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/070300-02.htm

 

and her is a GOP San Diego politician AND Scout Dad who marched in the Gay Pride parade here:

 

"Nearly every San Diego city councilmember marched in this years parade. Participating for the first time were GOP council members Kevin Faulconer, who represents District 2, and District 7 second-term councilman Jim Madaffer.

 

Faulconer, according to his web site, has two children aged four and two. Madaffer has twin sons in Boy Scouting and is currently active in Scouts, according to a spokeswoman from his office. During his first term, Madaffer fought to keep the Scouts in Balboa Park, consistently siding with them in council votes. In 2001, he referred to the local homosexual community as a vocal minority. Now, however, he appears to be siding with them."

 

This was from a catholic website so its a bit biased to one side.

 

I have no issues with the above - input?????

[Beavah]

Yah, but I really want to know, am I da E. Coli. colony or da refrigerated chicken? Nah, Beavahs aren't chicken, eh? That would have to be them flighty BobWhites. Beavahs might carry Beavah Feavah if yeh don't treat your water though. Guess that makes me the E. Coli.

 

I admit at this point I'm just tryin' to get a straight answer out of da bird for entertainment value, so here's kickin' again.

 

1) OK, BobWhite, assume someone was a member of a western Christian religious tradition, do yeh think they should "pick and choose" elements of their faith to believe in or not, as they see fit?

 

2) OK, BobWhite, it sounds like what you're sayin' is that a local council can actually waive a national safety policy for an individual unit, eh? Are yeh sure dat's what you want to claim?

 

Even so, let's assume that da troop in question has chosen as a troop activity to participate in a triathalon hosted by one of da youth triathalon organizations recommended in Boys' Life. Assume further that they are in a council which does not require Tour Permits within the council service area, and da triathalon is bein' held within the council service area. So there's no obligation to get prior approval from council. I'm not just makin' this up; I know several councils where this is da case, and at least two units that participate in this kind of triathalon as both participants and safety workers. Now are yeh still claimin' that these troop leaders are unethical, violatin' da rules, endangering childrens' lives, etc. because they're swimmin' without a roped off swim area in more than 12 feet of water?

 

3) Yah, true that there are different rules for units and councils, eh? But of course yeh also know that Safe Swim Defense applies to both, right? But fine, let's say as a unit activity, a troop runs an event which includes an open water swim at the same camp where they went to summer camp, over da same course as the mile swim in camp. The event is supervised by a BSA Aquatics director and several BSA lifeguards (all of whom are scouters or youth in da unit), and da same sort of safety boatin' arrangement is in place as at camp. But it's a unit activity in September. Are yeh still claimin' that these troop leaders are unethical, violatin' da rules, endangering childrens' lives, etc., because they're swimmin' without a roped off swim area in more than 12 feet of water? And just to be even more clear, da camp is one of those that operates in a public state park durin' the summer, so in September, the unit is in the same state park, not on council property or supervised by a council ranger. Those exist too, eh? I think Eamonn's council's camp is like that.

 

4) Lets say a Sea Scout Ship activity or long cruise, pulls into a safe bay and anchors off in 15 ft deep water, and then allows the youth to go snorkeling off the boat to view da reef, or swimmin' off the transom, usin' the buddy system and good supervision and proper snorkeling safety and lifeguards and the rest. Is da Skipper really being unethical, violatin' da rules, endangering childrens' lives, etc. because they're swimmin' without a roped off swim area in more than 12 feet of water? (which, BTW, was my only reference to rope in da original post).

 

Remember, da boldface rule in G2SS is "According to BSA Safe Swim Defense standards, no diving or swimming activity of any kind is done in water with a depth greater than 12 feet.

 

Inquirin' minds want to know.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[packsaddle]

Hey, I'd march in a gay pride parade. Nothing wrong with that!

 

Beavah, I'm not ignoring you, my furry friend. Just wanted to respond to the earlier comment.

[Gold Winger]

"Hey, I'd march in a gay pride parade. Nothing wrong with that!"

 

Not if you're proud of being a homosexual.

[Bob White]

Beavah why is it you keep changing the scenarios when you do not like the answers.

 

1. If you choose to be a member of a community then you ought to accept and follow the rules of the community or expect and accept the consequences of the community.

 

2. The group that held the event was not a scout group. They have no requirement to follow the rules of the BSA or any other organization that does not have jurisdiction over them. I do not understand how you do not get that.

 

3. Again Beavah. Council and national camps have regular and safety inspections, and have policies and guidelines based on special program features that they are able to offer, that often exceed the safety requirements made on units, because they have resources that allow them to offer activities that are normally unavailable to units.

 

4. Yes, as a unit activity you must follow the safe swim defense plan. However only a small percentage of Sea Scout Ships actually have a ship in an area where this kind of activity is even possible. I have no experience as a leader in such a location, and it could be that there are approved safety precautions that are available to them for such special activities. If there were no approved variances then yes it would be unethical for a leader to ignore any required safety regulation.

 

As an example, I know that scouts are allowed in deeper water for activities where they wear life jackets.

 

I swear Beavah never before have I seen anyone try as hard as you to justify violating rules.

 

If you cannot behave within the rules of your community in or out of scouting then do not follow the rules, but stop trying to get others to approve your poor choices. In addition, consider not trying to convince others to follow your example of such unethical decision-making. It is the antithesis of the Scout Oath and Law

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Another duck and avoid by BW, this round goes to Beavah. BW your statement about sea scouts is SOOOO wrong. Most successful sea scout ships are in large water, not six foot dingys with a sail out on a puny lake, those units usually don't survive for long. I wonder if you have really taken Sea Scout training or Seabadge cuz it sounds to me you don't know what you speak, or maybe you really are not part of any ship at all and just have a sea scout manual to refer to. My council alone has four ships which are large ex Coast Guard boats and several three masted sailing ships, and several racing sloops.

 

Back on point, why do you continue to avoid Beavahs questions about water activities, maybe cuz the answers are not in any book and rely on firsthand sea scout experience which it sounds like you just don't have. My oh my with all your so called experience these scenarios should be easy to answer.

[OldGreyEagle]

Being from Chicago, I can tell you about the ethnic make-up of the St Patricks Day Parade. Beleive, not everybody in that line is named Murphy or O'Hare, there are quite a few Kowalski's, Peskuski's, Ratkowski's, Kolchak and Santo's in there.

 

I would not expect a Gay Pride parade to be much different(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

[Bob White]

Careful BadenP your predjudice is showing. Again in an effort to attack me personally you ignore facts or make up new ones.

 

To assume that if a Ship is not located on ocean front means that it is on a 'puny lake with 6ft dingys' shows not only a rush to insult me and other Sea Scout Leaders, but it displays a lack of knowledge of the geography of the United States, and a lack of knowledge about recreational boating as well.

 

Lots of inland water ways are home to Sea Scout Ships many with vessels much larger than 6ft. The ship I serve has over a dozen boats over 6' feet in length in fact we have several that are 19ft or larger.

 

Plus if you draw upon your knowledge of Sea Scouting, from the few years you say you were a professional with the BSA, then you will remember that one of the early National Flag Ships was from the plains of Kansas. So you see, open water is not a factor in successful Sea Scouting.

 

While emotional, BadenP, your post lacks facts or knowledge, and not just about Sea Scouting.

 

But of course none of what you bring up has anything to do with the topic of the thread. No doubt others have noticed, as I have, that you have yet to say what you believe you have only tried to insult my opinion. Why do you not use what experience or expertise you have to address the topic rather than attack me? Sea Scouting is not the topic, why do you as a former BSA pro with a few years of experience not addres the the ethics of following the rules of the BSA?

 

I have answered beavahs erratic questions the problem is that neither of you like or accept the answers. That is a personal problem you will need to deal with yourselves.

 

Best wishes,

BW

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)