Rules and Values (again...)

[ASM59]

GW,

 

What about if you give your word and then circumstances change? Is that acceptable?

 

I'm only asking because I too find your position somewhat severe. I try to be a person of integrity, and if I give my word I typically follow through. There have been times however when I have had to change my position because of new information or because of a change of circumstance. An example (in this case not me) was one of our adult leaders promised to go to Summer Camp and then backed out when his father got very sick and actually passed away just the day before we were supposed to leave for camp. Does a change of circumstance allow one to go back on his/her word?

 

ASM59

 

[Gold Winger]

As my father would have said, "can not going change anything?"(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[David CO]

At this point, I don't think Gold Winger is for real. He's just yanking on our chains.

[Gold Winger]

I was going to respond but there's no sense in it.

 

(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[ASM59]

GW,

 

I really hope it is as David said, that you're "just yanking our chains". Like I said, there are circumstances that would allow you to change your mind and back out of a commitment (go back on your word). To say, "can not going change anything?" simply seems to me to be insensitive to your other responsibilities. Yes, not going can change things or at least help. No, it cannot bring the deceased one back, but you could be available to Mom and the rest of the family. In the case I spoke of, the adult was the only Son in town available to help his mother make visitation and funeral arrangements. There were legal matters that needed to be taken care of, and the list goes on.

 

I really hope you're kidding because I think in this case your obligations to family would trump your word, and nobody would think less of you for backing out under such circumstances.

 

ASM59

[Beavah]

Yah, so now here's a question.

 

Let's assume GoldWinger is really being honest, that he feels the ethical imperative is, as the Lord put it, to "let the dead bury the dead" (Luke 9:59-60) and keep one's word to da scouts who are living and who need him.

 

What does GoldWinger and the rest of us feel about pulling ASM59's adult leader aside to tell him that he's wrong to cancel on a Scout trip to go to his dad's funeral? That it's unethical, and he shouldn't do it, because he's breakin' his word to the kids? That he isn't Trustworthy, and maybe shouldn't be a Scouter at all?

 

Should GoldWinger report this man to da troop committee? To da Council? To the COR?

 

Or, even believing that the man is not doing the right thing, should he keep quiet? Perhaps because dat's really the job of the SM, CC, or COR? Or perhaps because some choices are hard, and good folks approach 'em differently, or because his relationship with the man isn't good enough that he can avoid coming off like a jerk?

 

Or is it "right is right, wrong is wrong, and it's always my job to tell 'em so?"

 

Beavah

 

[David CO]

Beavah, even if his relationship with the man had been "good enough" to approach him, I doubt that it would remain so.

[David CO]

ASM, you didn't say if the Scouter has a son in the unit. If so, the Scout lost his grandfather.

 

 

[Bob White]

Good grief, I don't believe I have ever seen adults try so hard to make excuses for not following some simple rules before. Now they are trying to obscure the discussion with some of the most obtuse logic that we have had to deal with on the forum to date,

 

There is no comparison between the two situations being offered. The first is a person choosing between right and wrong, following a rule or ignoring a rule. And the second,the choice between two right things. Attend a campout or attend a family funeral.

 

To try and make it appear that these two scenarios are in any way the same is a pathetic attempt to justify the actions of scout leaders who choose to ignore the the rules and policies of the BSA.

 

Absolutely pathetic! These folks need to muster up some personal values and learn what it means to be a responsible citizen in a community.

 

Beavah writes in another thread "Yah, boys follow da lead of their parents and troop leader, eh? Any boy will push to find the limits, and not findin' any will keep pushin' to see if anyone - especially mom and dad - actually care enough about them to impose some limits."

 

That's amazing...he understands that the scouts model their behavior after the adult leaders but he doesn't understand why those leaders show poor values and poor ethical chices when they purposely disobey or ignore the rules of the community!!!

 

U N B E L I E V A B L E !

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

Yah, BobWhite. Welcome back to da thread.

 

Current topic is... you've given your word to da boys that you would lead their IncrediblyStupendousWonderful trip. Without you there's nobody else available, and their trip needs to be canceled. Then your father dies.

 

* Do you keep your word to the community of boys? Or are you UnTrustworthy?

* Do yeh go to the funeral so that you are present for your family? Or are you unLoyal?

 

And if yeh are just an acquaintance of someone who chooses one of da two options and yeh disagree, do you pull 'em aside and tell 'em that they're wrong? Do yeh lay it on so thick that yeh tell 'em they "show poor values and poor judgment" and are therefore lousy Scouters?

 

I personally believe that real judgment often comes in choices between two competing "goods", as you suggest. Between followin' da rules, which may generally be a good thing, and takin' kids weekend camping fer 6 months out of the year (by driving at night), which is also a good thing. But yeh can't have both good things at da same time, necessarily.

 

So what do you do, personally? Drive at night? Or never take your Ship on a ski trip?

 

Yeh haven't mentioned your religious tradition here, but I've assumed its western. No western religious tradition that I know of quite shares your views. Are yeh loyal to your faith? Or do yeh feel you can "pick and choose" what aspects of your religion you choose to follow?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[ASM59]

Beavah,

 

I brought up the situation with our Adult Member (who yes did have a son in the Troop) and the death of his Father to simply point out to GW that there may be circumstances where you do need to go back on your promise (your word). I did not bring it up to say that someone should chastise the poor fellow for making a decision one way or the other. In fact, I think it would be cruel and heartless to do so. I don't know anyone who would think any less of someone in this situation for making the choice that he did. He, in fact, made the only choice he could; it was not his fault.

 

Youve taken this situation and twisted it to a new level to make your point, but BW is right, your arguments make no sense and border on, if not descend right smack in the middle of ridiculous.

 

ASM59

 

[Beavah]

Yah, ASM59, I'll cop to ridiculous if yeh think it's important to ridicule.

 

I know why you brought up da point. It was to confront GW with an extreme case, eh? We all got that.

 

I just pulled it back a bit from extreme, eh? I wanted to depict it as a harder choice, so that it would actually be a choice where "breaking one's word" had a consequence of some kind. It's really so very easy to make moral judgments like "always follow da rules" until we are confronted with a negative consequence of that choice (like stoning to death an adulterous woman, or bein' a juror asked to vote the death penalty on a 16-year-old).

 

I reckon it's da decisions we make in the face of such consequences, and our compassion toward those facin' similar decisions, which truly define whether we are "ethical."

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White]

So beavah are you suggesting then that a person that chooses to attend a parent's funeral over a previous committment is behaving unethically?

 

If not then what exactly is your point, because it certainly has nothing to do with the topic about rules and values.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

BobWhite, my question was for you, eh?

 

GoldWinger took your side in this. He said, in essence, "making a commitment to the community - givin' my word to da Scouts and living up to it" is an ethical imperative. Once I've agreed to live by da rules of that small community, which include followin' through on my commitments and being Trustworthy when I sign up for a trip, I am obligated to do that.

 

Are you now sayin' that it's OK, sometimes, for someone to choose not to follow through on a commitment? Without being an unethical person and a bad Scouter?

 

Would yeh even take your Ship on a ski outing that involved drivin' more than 45 miles after dark? Would yeh even let a sea scout take a quick dip off of a boat without a roped-off swim area and in more than 12 feet of water?

 

Would you, in fact, sometimes, when it's da right thing to do, not follow a rule?

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

You cannot possibly believe that there is a comparison between having to miss a campout in order to attend your father's funeral, and choosing to ingore a safety rule and endangering the lives of other people's children by ingnoring a safety rule?

 

Knowing that there are driving restrictions why would you purposely plan an outing in a manner that violates those rules. Simply leave earlier or schedule a stop along the way as you are directed to do.

 

Would I let allow a scout to risk their life by purposely violating a safe swim defense rules. Absolutely not. How could you be so irresponsible?