Rules and Values (again...)

[Beavah]

Yah, BW, yeh must be in marketing or public relations, eh? Great spin. A bit like watchin' a presidential debate. Rather than answer the question given, make up a question to answer instead, or just revert to your talkin' points.

 

1. So you agree that if you were a member of a religious community, you should follow da rules and beliefs of that community? Excellent. There's not a single Christian religious tradition which holds that one is always ethically bound to obey human law. In fact, my earlier post on the differences between natural law, human law, equity and all that pretty much describes da western Christian ethical tradition with respect to law. Even Catholics in da days of "Divine Right of Kings" rejected da notion we were always ethically bound to obey the king.

 

So I assume, since yeh have professed in da past to be Christian, you will now admit that followin' human rules is not necessarily an ethical imperative, even if you've agreed to 'em.

 

2. The group that held the event was not a scout group.

Yah, but the troop that participated in the event WAS a scout group. Surely you're not saying that a troop can participate in any event hosted by a non-scout group? Da question is not whether an outside group can hold a triathalon, eh? Da question is whether a scout troop can participate in it as a unit activity without, as you say, "endangering other people's children" even though such events are encouraged in Boys' Life.

 

3. Again Beavah. Council and national camps have regular and safety inspections

Again, BobWhite, we are not talkin' about a council or national camp, eh? We're talkin' about a unit activity, swimmin' the mile swim, in the exact same place as camp, with exactly da same safety arrangements, and exactly da same level of training as camp. Not a completely theoretical thing either, eh? I know at least one troop with no less than three BSA Aquatics Directors as unit scouters. Is it unethical, "endangerin' other people's children" and all that for them to run da mile swim as a unit activity? Perhaps in part because some lads didn't "make it" at camp so they practiced some more and really want to get the patch this year, and da unit thinks it's a great way to promote fitness?

 

4. Yes, as a unit activity you must follow the safe swim defense plan. However only a small percentage of Sea Scout Ships actually have a ship in an area where this kind of activity is even possible.

 

Never lived on da Great Lakes, West Coast, East Coast, Chesapeake, Inland Waterway, or Gulf Coast, eh? Remember, too, there's lots of Venturin' Crews and troops that also do water activities includin' keelboat sailin'. Again, this ain't a theoretical, eh? We've featured units doin' this stuff in both Scouting Magazine and Boys' Life over the years, and I know several units that have done exactly this kind of activity in those locations usin' either Ship-owned boats or charters.

 

So if I'm understandin' you right, what you're sayin' is a unit sailin' in da British Virgin Islands, in order to allow their youth to swim or snorkel in the bay where they've anchored, must establish a hazard to navigation by ropin' off a SSD area (with illegal hooks dropped on da reef), and cannot explore any reef anywhere near water over 12 feet deep? Or else they're unethical, endangerin' children and all da rest?

 

If you cannot behave within the rules of your community in or out of scouting then do not follow the rules, but stop trying to get others to approve your poor choices. In addition, consider not trying to convince others to follow your example of such unethical decision-making. It is the antithesis of the Scout Oath and Law

 

Aw, shucks, BobWhite. Resortin' to personal attacks now?

 

The point, which yeh sort of admit to in #1 above, is that rather than bein' the "antithesis" of da Oath and Law, what I'm describin' is the thesis of the oath and law. It is a central principle of Christianity and da western ethical tradition. To fail to teach duty to a Higher authority and da limits of human law is not to be "the best kind of citizen." What you are proposin' I believe is contrary to da Oath and Law, and to Christian ethics. It puts human rules above loyalty, and helpfulness, and kindness, and obedience to higher rules and principles, and bravery, and reverence, and being mentally awake. Might explain da nature of your postings often, eh?

 

This is important to me personally, perhaps more than others, because it is so amazingly easy for those who work in legal or policy fields to make an idol of da law, and to justify all kinds of unethical and reprehensible behavior with da quip that "they're followin' the law" or da professional canon, or "it's not against the law." We can be worse than da Pharisees the Lord regularly chastised, eh? Unless we make real effort to cleave to principles and to be mindful of equity as well as statute, we deserve all those lawyer jokes, eh? And we can do amazin' amounts of harm.

 

Matters to kids too, eh? Ever picked up a student handbook lately? Miles and miles and miles of Rules. Like David CO describes, some of 'em forbid chocolate chip cookies. Remember da lad out in Utah who almost died because he was "following the rule" about Stranger Danger, and hiding from SAR personnel? What we teach kids matters. Kids have to know it's OK sometimes to be late to class if you're sittin' with your friend who just found out her parents are gettin' divorced, even though bein' late to class is against da Rules.

 

Teachin' kids real ethics, and how to be really mentally awake, to my mind means teachin' 'em to evaluate human rules, both their importance and their relevance, in order to be ethical. To do Duty to God first and foremost, eh? And duty to page 36 of da handbook for a youth organization, while important, is way down the list.

 

Otherwise yeh don't have da Best Kind of Citizenship. Yeh just have a stunted form of ethics that's worthy of a lawyer joke.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

What you want Beavah is to be able to pick and choose the rules you follow in scouting. You want to be be able to do this based on your personal convenienience.

 

There is no religious doctrine that is compromised by the Safe Swim Defense Plan. You just don't want to follow it. You want to do what you want to do, and you want others to justify those actions for you. There is nothing heroic about ignoring the copyright protections of the BSA. You are not standing up for civil rights when you violate rules that you said you would follow.

 

The values of citizenship do not change dispite your use of smoke and mirror discussion to hide your actually activity. If you choose to go forty in a 30 MPH speed zone, then you display a lack of ethics. It has nothing to do with religion, it has nothing to do with Thomas Jefferson, or the civil rights activities in Selma, Alabama. It is just choosing to ingore your safety and the safety of others for your own personal convenience. It is no different then your disregard for the rules of the BSA programs.

 

As a parent of a Scout I expect "leaders" to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Obedient, your approach of picking and choosing the rules of the community to ignore or follow as you please does not reflect those values.

[BadenP]

Bobby

Sorry but the facts do back me up, the most successful sea scout units, those that last more than a few years, have ever growing numbers, and participate in regattas and other events that highlight sea scouting are those located near larger bodies of water, it just makes common sense. Check and see with National for yourself. Yes there are those rare cases of a ship in Kansas or other landlocked areas, most of them don't last too long. As a DE I had one ship located up in the mountains and they had to travel 3-4 hours to the nearest body of water, when the skipper passed away the crew disbanded. You and I could debate this and it still won't change the facts, sea scouting has been shrinking due to a myriad of factors, the expense of maintaing a boat, insurance/fuel costs, the amount of labor, a lack of funding etc. Only those units that are financially backed, are larger ships, near a larger body of water, and have the opportunity to participate in multi ship events seem to survive and thrive. That has been my experience as a DE in a council covering districts on the water and in remote areas, and talking with fellow professionals in other areas of the country with successful and not so successful sea scouting programs.

 

Back to point Bobby, why don't you answer Beavahs questions instead of attacking me and trying to change the focus of this thread. What do you do Bob when a situation comes up that isn't in the book or doesn't exactly follow BSA guidelines even though adequate safeguards are in place? We are waiting for your answers.

[highcountry]

This thread like many others similar revolving about rules and though should and thou must has become long and mostly non productive. It reminds me of the occasional reference I have seen hear and heard elsewhere that rules zealots spoil things and run off some scouts and volunteers. BSA can and continues to pile on so many rules it is hard to keep track of them all or be aware of them all except for those who have some warped ego bent on knowing the rules and telling others how they have it wrong, so counter productive to trying to do a good safe job and deliver a good program. For those who are rules hounds, the an be no end to how many ruiles and policies, some no matter how useless that BSA can add on, there is no higher honor to them that following every single rule to the letter is the highest priority. People like that don't change and I find the forums much more beneficial to put some posters on ignore. It is better than wasting energy with hardheads for arguments one is never going to win, in aprticular, on an internet message board.

[Bob White]

"sea scouting has been shrinking due to a myriad of factors, the expense of maintaing a boat, insurance/fuel costs, the amount of labor, a lack of funding etc."

 

More smoke and mirrors, opinions without facts.

 

Sea Scouting has actually been growing. The Central Region for instance had a significant growth in Sea Scout membership over the past two years.

The expense of maintaining boats is often no worse than the expense of outfitting a growing troop, The cost of fuel varies greatly with the type of vessel. Our largest boats (19-25ft) use about 3 gallons of gas a season.

Insurance in most ships is handled no differently than insurance on a troop's trailer would be. Amount of labor? Our members supply the labor just as is done in any type of scout unit. As far as lack of funding, Ships fund raise just as a any Scout Unit might, and budget just as other Scout units do.

 

Our ship for instance is on a river, we are are not exceptionally well funded and yet we are growing and have over a dozen boats sailing.

 

Again, you make a lot of claims with very little fact.

 

Nor have you actually commented yet on the topic of rules and ethics. Beavah it seems feels we cannot offer a good program without violating BSA policies, and yet we have a growing program and still follow Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense. Why is Beavah unable to? It comes down to choice, and choice is based on personal values.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

Yah, BobWhite, I think what you want is to pick and choose what parts of Christianity and western ethics you believe in order to suit your own convenience.

 

Actually, my personal concern is how to stay ethical in da midst of a professional world of rules and policies which often lead to poor behavior.

 

Now, mindful that highcountry is entirely right that this is an amusin' exercise in futility, I'm still waiting for an answer to my four questions.

 

Or, if yeh want, you can comment on whether David CO is unethical, endangering his and other people's children, etc. for sending chocolate chip cookies with his kid's lunch.

 

Or, if yeh want, you can comment on whether da scout I talked about, who chose to sit with his friend and then take her to the counselors office because she was so depressed and expressed suicidal ideation, was really unethical because he broke a school rule about gettin' to class on time.

 

Or, if yeh want, you can comment on whether da State Police commander in da article in a former thread on this topic http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=191493&p=5 is really unethical when he says that travelin' at da average speed of traffic is best no matter what the posted speed limit is, because folks who travel below da average speed of traffic to observe the speed limit are 100 times more likely to cause an accident. Should Scouters endanger other people's children by doin' something authorities have clearly said is less safe, in order to follow a rule?

 

Beavah

 

[skeptic]

Okay guys; agree to disagree and move on!! This continued nonsense is the kind of thing that will drive people away from bothering to read any more. And that could deprive them of something that is actually useful. Enough already!! JMHO

[Bob White]

Beavah

I have already answered the previous question and see no need to continueto repeat myself in hopes that you would learn something new. You are free to simply go back and reread the previous answers.

 

As for David Co's situation. If indeed the School has instituted a poicy of no chocolate chip cookies, and David was a ware of the rule and still sent them then yes, That is an issue of personal values. The parent was out of fruit roll-ups; that is not the schools fault. There are other options for the parent, pack something other than roll-ups that are within the rules, plan better. Otherwise we are back to breaking the rule simply because it is inconvenient for you personally, and thas a lousy reason to break the rule.

 

While you may feel that the scholl has no right to tell you what to feed your child the School board who you elected to represent you has the authority to determine what happens at school. If you don't like it elect new representatives who feel as you feel, but until then as long as he is a member of that school he has the obligation to follow the rules that have been established.

 

So the parents resent the expense of fruit roll-ups. Then buy something else, they never said the poicy was that you had to send fruit roll-ups every day.

 

As far as the situation where there boy took a friend to the counselors office....You do understand the concept of 'emergency' right? I mean if you were a Sea Scout on a boat that caught fire would you actually believe that you can't abondon ship and jump into the water if it were not the designated depth or roped off.

Your attempot to use emergencies is pirifully weak and borders on deceptive.

 

Quick civics lesson, State Police do not determine the law. Nor does a personal opinion of a State Trooper establish law. Certainly you realize that if you are ticketed for speeding and you try to use that as a defense that you will quickly have a traffic conviction on your record. Go ahead and have a high speed collision and tell the families of those you kill that lucky for them you wern't going under the average speed because that is really more dangerous. I doubt they will thank you for your high ethical choice.

 

Your are still saying that if you try hard enough you can rationalize ignoring rules that you find personally inconvenient, despite your responsibility to the community. It's wrong, and it ignores the values of Scouting.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Quick civics lesson, State Police do not determine the law. Nor does a personal opinion of a State Trooper establish law. Certainly you realize that if you are ticketed for speeding and you try to use that as a defense that you will quickly have a traffic conviction on your record.

 

Actually, dat's the point, eh?

 

It presents a situation where followin' the law is less safe. Any collision on a highway is goin' to be "high-speed", eh? After you've chosen to do something 100 times more dangerous than was necessary with other people's children, what are yeh goin' to say when they're injured in da crash you caused? "I was only followin' da rules"?

 

Of course, if yeh read the article, you'd find that da state police did override a municipality and change its speed limits, and that those who used the argument as a defense on a speeding ticket actually prevailed in court.

 

Guess your civics lesson wasn't all that clear either, eh? Law's a bit more complex than yeh think.

 

Still waitin' on answers to 2, 3, and 4 though. Unit participation in a triathalon, unit open water mile swim, swimmin' off da back of the boat or snorkelin' the reef. Is it unethical to do all these things?

 

Anyway, in deference to skeptic's request, I'm bowin' out for a bit so that he and others can join the conversation in earnest.

 

Beavah

 

[BadenP]

Yah right Bob, 12 six foot dingys with sails where there was no sea scout ship is growth in your rose colored scouting world, true in your mind but not reality. You obviously do not have any power boats because the expenses you quote are way way off base,making me wonder if you really do have any real connection to any sea scout ship and once again you are twisting reality. For the record Sea Scouting, real sea scouting is on the decline nationally, anyone can check it out themselves.

 

You see Beavah you will never get a true answer from Bobby he lives in his own world of rules, everything is black and white, and if it is not in the Guidelines to Safe Scouting then it is always wrong and dangerous so you will never win an arguement with him. Personally I don't think BW has all the experience he claims, he can quote a pub. source all he wants but most of his answers shows a real lack of experience ever leading any scout unit. Only in this forum can he pretend to be master scout of the world, lol.

[evmori]

Beavah,

 

You've given it your best shot but Bob isn't budging! He thinks he has answered your questions but as usual, he's two-stepped them & lastly started combining them to claim non-applicability! You are fighting a losing battle, my friend. The best you can do is claim a moral victory & wait for the next foray! Heaven knows there will be one!

 

And for the record, I concur with you on these points, Beavah.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

I am sorry here. But, if the school district my children ever went to Barred, Prohibited, Outlawed or otherwise messed with my ability to send Chocolate Chip Cookies to school for my child to eat, you would all see me on TV holding a Chocolate Chip Cookie "Eat-In" on that school grounds and if you want to say that makes me a bad scout leader, fine. I invoke the spirit of Henry David Thoreau and would rather have scouts see an adult eating chocolate chip cookies than one cowed by the Cookie Polie

 

You know, its not often one gets to wrap oneself in chocolate chip cookie and I could not pass up the opportunity

[Bob White]

More deceptive statements. What the articles beavah refers to says is "Contrary to popular belief, speed in itself is not a major cause of accidents. In fact, there is a consensus of professional opinions that many speed-related accidents result from both excessively low and high speeds."

 

And it does not say that the State Police can alter the speed limits it says that in Michigan the "State" can alter them, not the State police. And no it doesn't say the State Police did override the local limits, it said they were trying to but that the Department of Transportaion had not approved it yet. BIG DIFFERENCE. just more false premises to support his false conclusions.

 

Now BadenP joins in the falsehoods. 12 six foot dingys with sails where there was no sea scout ship is growth in your rose colored scouting world, true in your mind but not reality.

 

I never said 12 6ft boats, I said we had over a dozen boats OVER the size of the 6ft dingys you referenced. You are so busy trying to attack me that you do not actually read the posts to try and understand them. You continue to try an attack my scouting experience when you know nothing about it. What I do and have done in scouting has nothing to do with what the rules of the program are or on the ehics of following the rules in a cummunity. A topic you have yet to address.

 

If you think that your constant personal attacks on me will somehow advance Beavahs attempts to gain approval for not following the rules of the community, I think you are mistaken. The two subjects are not related.

 

Your opinion of me is what is, emotionally charged and factually vacuous.

 

Beavahs distain for the rules of a community are self-centered and unsupportable.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Bob White]

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[CA_Scouter]

"As for David Co's situation. If indeed the School has instituted a poicy of no chocolate chip cookies, and David was a ware of the rule and still sent them then yes, That is an issue of personal values."

 

Let's spin this just for kicks and giggles:

 

 

Its the 50's in Alabama and David is black. He drinks out of a water fountain that is clearly labled 'whites only'.

 

 

Is this also an issue of personal values?