The latest Ask Andy

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

John-in-KC, what is so "Spanish Inquisition"-ish about asking a simple question that's a membership requirement? Unless you're comparing the BSA to the inquisition (or only if they actually enforce their membership standards).

 

Also John, suppose the scout tells you he doesn't believe in a god, but doesn't leave quietly, as you seem to be suggesting he do. Do you kick him out?

[Beavah]

Yah, it's always amazin' how we get suckered in and caught in Merlyn's flypaper, eh?

 

Merlyn, I'm sorry yeh don't understand or care to understand the BSA's position on these things and how it's applied in the field, eh? But we're not fundamentalists. You quotin' isolated segments of various documents out of context (most of which aren't policy documents) is amusin' and all, but it's not the way we think about things in the BSA. Isolated quotes are interpreted in a bigger context, and most of us spend all our time doin' program or support for real kids without givin' this issue a second thought.

 

Yeh can't quote a dictionary definition of "karma" at a Hindu and tell him he's wrong about his own beliefs. Yeh have to listen to what a Hindu means by the term karma, in the context of his faith. Same with the BSA. Your quotin' dictionary definitions and such has no meaning. Yeh have to learn what the folks within the BSA mean by our terms, in the context of our program.

 

That requires effort, and kindness, and an appreciation for nuance and different values, eh? Probably too much work since it doesn't fit with your prejudices about us, eh? Or with your agenda.

 

Beavah

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

But I do understand it, Beavah. The BSA insists that atheists be kicked out, but many of the membership don't want to actually do that. They also like telling themselves that scouting is for all boys, and that the ones being kicked out are really rejecting the BSA, not the reverse (just as Jews kicked themselves out of Restricted clubs, instead of being excluded for being Jews).

 

All the bizarre rationalizations for not asking straightforward questions related directly to membership requirements only shows how stupid, arbitrary, and spottily enforced they are.

[Gold Winger]

"Jews kicked themselves out of Restricted clubs,"

 

How can you kick yourself out of something that you were never in?

[NJCubScouter]

How can you kick yourself out of something that you were never in?

 

I think Merlyn was being facetious there.

[Gold Winger]

is incapable of being facetious. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[John-in-KC]

Merlyn,

 

How many children of your own have you reared? How many have you supported as a direct contact youth-serving leader? Do you understand Ages and Stages? Do you understand that these are people who are learning independent thought, judgment, and conclusion-reaching?

 

I've reared my own son, and supported a fair few. 11-18? Firmly locked in faith? I don't think so. Many, with guidance from friends, teachers, mentors, Pastors, and God, make mind and heart decisions during this time. My own son asks me questions, and we talk about God a fair bit, even now. He's 19, and in college.

 

Now, to answer your specific question, if I have a Scout who professes agnositicsm/atheism at a knowledge and heart level, and refuses to leave voluntarily, I'm going to ask my COR, UC, and DE for assistance. Neither the SM(Venturing Advisor) nor the CC can make this decision; it's not at their level of volunteerism.

 

BTW, as a CC, I've refused to accept a Scouter app, when I asked an adult about the DRP. The standard for adults is clear.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Are you saying the standard for adults is different from the standard for youth? The BSA's legal website doesn't appear to make such fine distinctions.

 

I'd say the standard for youth is also pretty clear, and it's also pretty clear that a lot of people aren't willing to enforce it. As for your other rather opaque remarks, if your point is that young people's opinions are in flux, I agree, which isn't an argument in favor of rigid religious requirements.

 

I've raised a son who is now 24, and I've never been a "direct contact youth-serving leader".

 

 

(moved apostrophe)(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[John-in-KC]

OK, I think we agree the standard is clear.

 

The question is when and how do I and other leaders apply the standard to youth. Let me say this as plainly as I can:

 

As long as a youth member says words to the effect of I'm learning about (insert name of supreme being here), I'm going to help him in his search. If he says I'm not sure about (insert sb here), I'm going to help him in his search.

 

Only if the youth member says I don't believe, and here's why, and the WHY makes sense, am I going to have to have a talk about if it's time for Scouting and him to part company.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Now, that's fundamentally what I've said before. I'm sorry if you don't understand. I'm sending the message as clearly as I know how to.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Those first two statements don't answer whether the youth believes in a god at the moment or not; as with my "how old are you" example, why don't you just ask? Why shy away from a direct question about a membership requirement?

[John-in-KC]

BECAUSE HE'S A KID. Why do you think churches confirm when a youth is an 8th grader or so? Minds are full of mush, he/she doesn't understand the consequences of answering that particular direct question.

 

I guess you've never seen this Bible verse:

First Corinthians, Chapter 13, verse 11a (NIV):

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child.

 

This is my last post in this thread. Don't bother asking any further. I will not respond.

[Beavah]

But I do understand it, Beavah.

 

Nope. Yeh just think you do. Like someone who has read a book about Hinduism, but has never been a practicing Hindu and has not even grown up in that culture. You think having read a few isolated pages from various texts and read about a few incidents with Hindus means that yeh know what Hindus really believe and act like and support.

 

Oops. Substitute "Scouting" for "Hindu".

 

Yeh see how ridiculous it is.

 

Beavah

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

OK J-in-KC, you wouldn't ask "because he's a kid." That doesn't really answer anything (I don't see anything wrong with asking someone, even a kid, whether they believe in a god or not, particularly if it's pertinent to whether they meet membership requirements). This is exactly why I describe such nonsense as dancing around the issue.

 

And Beavah, I understand what happens because people do the same thing in this forum. They insist that atheists be kicked out, yet most of them are too spineless to enforce the BSA's membership requirements when faced with a real kid actually being rejected "because he's a kid."

 

And the BSA pretends to teach ethics and honesty? Ha!

[acco40]

Merlyn, to become a Scout or a Scouter one needs to fill out an application. On the application is the DoRP.

 

Program Policies abridged by acco40

The program is flexible, but major departures from BSA methods and policies are not permitted. As a parent, you should be aware that

Leadership is restricted to qualified adults who subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle, the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, and the BSA Standards of Leadership.

The Boy Scouts of America recognizes the importance of religious faith and duty; it leaves sectarian religious instruction to the members religious leaders and family.

Members who do not belong to a units religious chartered organization shall not be required to participate in its religious activities.

 

Excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.

 

Policy of Nondiscrimination

Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all boys and young adults who meet the joining requirements.

 

Now what are the joining requirements?

Boy Scout Troop

Your son can be a Scout if he has completed the fifth grade and is at least 10 years old or is age 11 or has earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but has not reached age 18.

1. Complete the application (sign your name, indicating approval).

2. Give the completed application and fees to the Scoutmaster.

3. Secure a copy of the Boy Scout Handbook and complete the joining requirements as listed. (which includes: Understand and agree to live by the Scout Oath or Promise, Law, motto, and slogan, and the Outdoor Code.)

 

So basically, all a Scout promises to do is do their duty to God (Oath) and be reverent (Law). So, if I was a conniving lawyer (is that redundant? ) I could state that: I see no such requirement for a youth to suscribe to the DoRP. A Scout may feel his duty to God is the same as my duty to Santa Clause - nothing. And to "be reverent" does not tell the Scout what to revere.

 

Yes, the BSA will put out position papers, many will give you their opinions but the vast majority of Scouters will not look for ways to boot the boy out but try to keep the boy in the program so that they derive benefits from the program.

 

[hot_foot_eagle]

"Yes, the BSA will put out position papers, many will give you their opinions but the vast majority of Scouters will not look for ways to boot the boy out but try to keep the boy in the program so that they derive benefits from the program. "

 

 

Until they fill out an application for Eagle - then the rules seem to change. Or at least the interpretation / enforcement seems to change, and I think that's grossly unfair to the boys. They need to know up front that their path will NOT lead them to eagle, and that their time and energy might be better spent in another organization.