Jewish Athiests

[Novice_Cubmaster]

I cannot vouch for the Orthodox viewpoint, but Reform Judaism acknowledges that someone can be Jewish and NOT believe in G-d. If you "follow the rules" and don't follow any other deity - you can be Jewish. Actions count, not belief.

 

Again, this is a Reform point of view - if there are any Orthodox or Conservatives reading this, please don't stone me as a heretic. I have serious doubts about how someone can be both Jewish & an athiest, but it's not my call (that's above my pay grade...).

 

NC

[Gold Winger]

That's just too danged confusing.

[NJCubScouter]

Actually, it is oversimplified, and as a result, not really correct. See what I wrote in the other thread. I don't really want to get into this again, but basically, "Jewish" is both a "people" and a religion, and you can be part of either one without being part of (or believing in, as the case may be) the other.

 

I don't see why this is a big deal, and I don't see why it needs its own thread (which Novice says was created by mistake anyway.) In the other thread, Merlyn made a statement, it was incorrect, I pointed out how it was incorrect, he then backtracked and said that he had made a different statement. I decided to leave it at that. Can't we just leave it at that?

 

If anyone is really interested in the subject, there is a pretty good article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F . Actually I only read the first third of it or so, and Wikipedia articles have a way of containing nonsense with nobody finding it right away, but I saw no problem in the part I read. If you want to read about it, go read about it, and there are other articles you can find on the Internet as well. I just don't see the benefit of discussing it in this forum, as it has nothing to do with Scouting.

 

What does have to do with Scouting is this:

 

One, the Jewish religious awards can be earned by adherents of any of the the four major movements (or denominations) within Judaism, of which "Jewish atheists" is not one. "Jewish atheists" are part of the Jewish people, but they do not believe in Judaism.

 

Two, in earning any of the Jewish religious awards, a Scout would either have to believe in God, or be extremely untrustworthy (which I guess would also apply to Christian, Muslim, etc. Scouts as well.) I am not talking about teenagers who have doubts, because many teenagers of many religions have doubts. I am talking about a youth who has become committed to the belief that there is no God. Earning the awards requires regular attendance at religious services, prayer, Bible study, etc., all of which is predicated on the existence of God.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

NJCubScouter writes:

In the other thread, Merlyn made a statement, it was incorrect, I pointed out how it was incorrect, he then backtracked and said that he had made a different statement.

 

What statement did I make that was incorrect? And what statement of mine backtracked?

 

[packsaddle]

Merlyn, I'm thinking it is at the top of page 2 in the other thread on atheism.

 

I'm curious as to how one starts a new thread by accident. Kind of like tripping on the sidewalk and accidentally starting a new thread?

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Hi Pack,

 

By clicking on "New Topic" instead of "Post Reply" - that's how you start a new thread by accident. Well, that & playing on the internet after a long day.

 

NC

[NJCubScouter]

Packsaddle says:

 

Merlyn, I'm thinking it is at the top of page 2 in the other thread on atheism.

 

That was where I disagreed with Merlyn's statement about the Jewish religion, which I quoted. What I perceive as a "backtracking" statement is this later one by Merlyn:

 

About all I've said is that a Jew can also be an atheist, which is true. Jewish atheists are accepted as Jews by other Jews.

 

The key here is the omission of the word "religion", which had been the centerpiece of the previous quotes. That changes the whole issue, for the reasons described in my various posts over the last couple days.

 

I'm curious as to how one starts a new thread by accident. Kind of like tripping on the sidewalk and accidentally starting a new thread?

 

Packsaddle, you have said that I make you laugh sometimes, thank you for returning the favor.

 

Anyway, my main point here is that there is no real point here. The subject, so far as it has anything to do with Scouting, has been fully explored.

[packsaddle]

Don't mention it, I owe it all to Jaqueline Suzanne and Harold Robbins.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I still don't see what you're getting at, NJ. Someone born of a Jewish mother is considered a member of the Jewish religion, just as a baby baptised in a Catholic church is considered Catholic. Belief in a god isn't a requirement in either case.

[acco40]

George Carlin had a funny bit about the "pride" of being Irish, Jewish, etc. He said why should someone be proud of something they did nothing to obtain - like your DNA? I think he makes a valid point.

 

So from a "religious" perspective, I view being Jewish as one who believe in Judaism. I'm aware not all agree. Therefore, someone like Sammy Davis Jr. can be Jewish.

 

Merlyn, I disagree with your last statement. One born to a Catholic mother (or Jewish mother) could be Islamic, Protestant or many other religions.

 

And speaking of humor, one of my favorite quotes by Robin Williams I believe, is "Never buy gribnits from a Moyel, they're so chewy." Or is it Mohel?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Acco40, Sammy Davis Jr. converted to Judaism, so I don't know what your point was with him. I view being Jewish (or Catholic) as generally looking at what criteria those religions use to determine membership.

 

Merlyn, I disagree with your last statement. One born to a Catholic mother (or Jewish mother) could be Islamic, Protestant or many other religions.

 

Of course -- but when they are born, children of a Jewish mother are considered Jews, and infants baptised in a Catholic church are considered Catholics, even though infants are clearly too young to have opinions of the creeds of these religions.

[NJCubScouter]

Packsaddle:

 

Don't mention it, I owe it all to Jaqueline Suzanne and Harold Robbins.

 

Ah, the giants. (Have we had this conversation before?)

 

Acco:

 

That's the quote -- except it's "gribenes"; I believe "mohel" is the preferred English spelling but "moyel" is how it's usually pronounced; and I'm saying in advance that I refuse to explain the joke if anyone asks. I believe Robin Williams says it in "Mrs. Doubtfire" when he is in costume/makeup as an elderly Jewish woman.

 

Merlyn: I disagree with how you are using the word "religion", but I'm not discussing it anymore. I know you think you are using it the way the religion(s) in question use it.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ah, say I'm incorrect and I backtracked, and then refuse to discuss it when I call you on it. Gotcha.

[packsaddle]

You were commenting to someone else that I probably have seen the film and I replied to the effect that I'd seen it at least umpteen times. I just saw it again for umpteen+1. And thought about you when I heard that line again.

 

Next we're scheduled to move on to 'Galaxy Quest'...and beyond!

[Novice_Cubmaster]

You know, for a thread that I accidentally started - it's had more than its 15 seconds of fame.

 

NC