How Can a Youth Program Member who Proclaims Atheism make an ethical choice to be in Scouting?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Stosh writes:

To emphasize that Atheism is not a religion and then say that some religions are Atheistic ("Raelism"?) doesn't do much to further the discussion.

 

Sure it does. Consider:

 

Trinitarianism is not a religion, it's a creed of most Christian religions. Trinitarianism itself isn't a religion, and it would be a mistake to call it a religion.

 

Atheism is not a religion, it's a creed of a very few religions. Atheism itself isn't a religion, and it would be a mistake to call it a religion.

 

You aren't differing between religions vs. creeds that some religions hold or don't hold. Theism isn't a religion, even though nearly all religions have some sort of theism as a creed. And you still haven't come up with a dictionary that describes atheism as a religion (as bad as some dictionary definitions of atheism are, I've never seen one that bad).

 

So why do you say it's a religion, while simultaneously decrying sloppy terminology?

[PatBB]

From Alfansome's Post #5:

"Would all the other positive benefits of scouting allow parents to be drawn to the program even in spite of the focus on religion?"

YES. Bingo. There are many people who join many org.s for all the positive things with which they agree despite disagreeing with a few details.

Also, parents can be atheists but not want to brainwash/ indoctinate their children, so they want their children to hear & understand the case for and against the existence of God, then make up their own mind when they come of age.

[Novice_Cubmaster]

In response to a couple of posts in this thread, I accidentally started a new thread - Jewish Athiests.

 

One thing I've noticed over the year or so that I've been posting is a general assumption that the Jewish half of Judeo-Christian isn't that different from the Christian half. While true in many areas, there are some significant theological differences (besides not believing in the divinity of Jesus).

 

Long story short, while you can't have a Christian Athiest, you can have a Jewish Athiest. And, I would hold that someone who chooses to "follow the rules", without belief in G-d, or fear of eternal judgement, is a highly ethical person.

 

That said, I would hope that a Jewish Athiest, Buddhist Athiest, UU Athiest, or even a just plain Athiest scout - would have enough character to not be a scout.

 

Ahh, the fantasy world I live in...

 

NC

 

 

[WAKWIB]

A couple of things in response to John-in-KC's original post on this thread.

"How Can a Youth Program Member who Proclaims Atheism make an ethical choice to be in Scouting?"

I have a rather hard time understanding how a person who sincerely proclaims to be an atheist makes any 'ethical' choices at all. What really informs that person's thought processes? I would think that they would have a difficult time working out the Oath and Law in their daily life. A true atheist would, in order to arrive at their conclusion of atheism, have to largely abandon the testimony of their conscience. If there is no accountability, why should anyone feel compelled to do their best for others and to lead a lifestyle that reflects Trustworthy, Loyal etc.?

 

I tend to think that a youth (my point of reference here is the 11-18 group that most of us Scouters work with) who claims to be atheist, has not really delved deeply enough into that claim to be intellectually honest. For some it may simply be a catch-word that means..."Look at me, I'm rebelling against my parent's religion." And that is not the same as atheism.

 

As has been discussed in a variety of ways on these forums, there are many kids who come to our program simply for fun. They don't wholeheartedly embrace the aim of character development. That aim, I don't think, is in the forefront of any kid's mind when he joins Scouts. It runs in the background, and it is the job of the adults to see that it keeps running.

 

"How can the parents of an atheist place a young man in a program where God/gods are a primary point?"

 

Now for a parent that aim, and something about God as a part of that aim, maybe a strong reason to bring their boy to the program. They may see it as an opportunity to bring an understanding of God to the young man "through the back door", so to speak. Or, at least, that some of the values expressed in the Law would rub off.

Although I never claimed to be an atheist as a kid, I did have a certain agnostic/irreligious/rebellious streak. For me, Scouting was one of the avenues that God used to win me over.

 

(This message has been edited by WAKWIB)

[AlFansome]

"A true atheist would, in order to arrive at their conclusion of atheism, have to largely abandon the testimony of their conscience."

 

Why? I don't see any connection there whatsoever. Why can't an athiest use something akin to the Golden Rule as a guide? Pretty much everything else can follow from that, which is probably why many/most belief systems have some sort of concept in the "Do unto others" vein.

 

From a societal point of view, there are certainly risk/rewards in not being "nice" to others around you, so a belief in God isn't necessary to live in harmony with (and do things to benefit) others.

 

For those who believe that evolution is how we got here, what exactly is a "conscience" in the biological sense? Does there need to be an outside force to provide our "conscience" with direction? Or are societal pressures and influences and interactions enough to have formed a "conscience" via the millions of years of evolution that come before?

 

No answers here...just trying to consider an opposing view.

 

 

[Kudu]

The original question, "How Can a Youth Program Member who Proclaims Atheism make an ethical choice to be in Scouting?" or "How can the parents of an atheist place a young man in a program where God/gods are a primary point?" assumes that atheists are bound by an equally rigid "primary point."

 

Like most (if not all) of the so-called "Eight Methods of Scouting," the BSA's practice of the "Ideals Method" is the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's vision of Scouting. In fact the BSA even went so far as to issue a fatwa stating that "Duty to God" is not even an Ideal, it is an "obligation"!

 

This "obligation" mentality attempts to present Scouting as a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles. If you can get a child to admit that he does not believe in God, then you can kick him out.

 

Baden-Powell's Scouting is the polar opposite.

 

B-P presents Scouting as ACTION: a GAME that inevitably leads a boy to his god through 1) detailed study of "God's creation," nature. Badges that represent the mastery of these skills are called "Scoutcraft" badges; 2) Service for Others (once called "Practical Christianity"). Badges that represent the mastery of these skills are called "Public Service" badges; and 3) The personal example of his Scouters. Not their clever adult word games, but how they actually treat other people.

 

Over the years I have encountered eight (8) Scouts (including three Senior Patrol Leaders) who defined themselves as atheists.

 

My approach is to arm my atheist Scouts against closed-minded "obligation" Scouters by teaching them how to play their adult word games.

 

Baden-Powell's approach to spirituality is described by some as "pantheistic." One pantheist definition of "God" appeals to most atheist Scouts: "God as the sum-total of all the natural laws of the universe."

 

Atheist Scouts usually enjoy discussing such things. I get them to memorize this definition, and in subsequent discussions I ask the atheist to describe in his own words the natural laws behind whatever Scoutcraft skill he is working on (fire-making is my favorite).

 

Once an atheist Scout had the option (the OPTION, mind you) of a definition of "God" that spoke to his own experience and did NOT depend on supernatural powers, a strange thing happened in my Troop: In a few months they said they believed in God.

 

Significantly none of these eight Scouts embraced pantheism as I had first expected. For some reason they adopted the conventional religions of their culture.

 

Older atheist Scouts then tend to retry their parents' religions. Adam, an SPL joined his mother's evangelical church for a while but then moved to his father's Catholic church.

 

Younger atheist Scouts tend to come from homes in which one or both of their parents are non-believers. After a religious awards presentation, Ray, a twelve-year-old, excitedly told his mother that he wanted to earn ALL of the religious awards before he decided which one was for him (to which his mother looked at me and sighed out loud).

 

In reviewing his "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt" another atheist twelve-year-old, Timmy, told me that he was "Reverent" when he "protected" Christian boys from his "friends at school who still believe that God is fake like Santa Claus." This Patrol Leader (a small but outspoken pugilist) had used his not-to-be-messed-with reputation and the force of his personality to convince his Patrol that it was safe to wear their Boy Scout Uniforms to school every Monday, the day of the Troop meeting.

 

Timmy loved to sing at Scouts-Own services.

 

Kudu

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

AlFansome writes:

For those who believe that evolution is how we got here, what exactly is a "conscience" in the biological sense?

 

I'd say it's largely empathy. Sociopaths don't experience empathy or remorse, and they don't act like they have consciences.

 

Does there need to be an outside force to provide our "conscience" with direction?

 

Not "need," but there are lots of forces doing that anyway -- laws, religions, societal approval/disapproval, etc.

 

[packsaddle]

Merlyn beat me to it. When I read the question, the term 'empathy' came immediately to mind. I can only add that being able to "put oneself in another's place" and empathy are essentially why we value the golden rule.

I have noted in the past that a full code of morality can be derived from the second law of thermodynamics and a simple assumption that greater efficiency is better than less efficiency. Nothing more is needed.

[SSScout]

But Pack, we're not talking about closed, natural systems here. Not negative entropy, but CHOICE. Even Maxwell's Demon has choice. The coffee cup HAS to cool off, and approach equality with it's surroundings, but for the CHOICE of the demon, yes? The person has to CHOOSE to follow the GR. It is NOT a entropic thing. Tigers do not CHOOSE to be nice and encouraging to the waterbuffalo in front of it's hungry eyes. ("eat up and get fatter for me, ummmmm.").

 

 

[SSScout]

 

"when I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean...neither more nor less."

 

= Humpty Dumpty, in "Thru the Looking Glass"

[packsaddle]

It applies to open systems too. And as far as I am concerned, ALL systems are natural, and all natural systems are open...unless you really believe that Matrix movie theme.

Of course it is a choice. The outcome of the choices are subject to selective pressures and those which produce the greatest efficiency tend to win out eventually. If people make wasteful (less efficient) choices they are at a competitive disadvantage with those who are less wasteful (more efficient). This works in all systems, just the mechanisms are more complex in social ones (and might involve irrational supernatural spirits or something).

[Kudu]

AlFansome writes:

 

For those who believe that evolution is how we got here, what exactly is a "conscience" in the biological sense?

 

My guess is that natural selection favored reproduction by individuals in our hunter-gatherer species who conformed to group survival strategies that required cooperation.

 

All of these things are learned in childhood through positive and negative reinforcement. Conscience is the ringing voices of adults repeated throughout childhood that inhibited actions that did not conform to group norms. The more universal these inhibitions are across cultures (stealing other group-members' hunting tools, mating with their spouses, or killing them), the more disruptive the inhibited behaviours are to basic group survival efforts that require cooperation.

 

The cultural origin of conscience is obvious: When was the last time you felt even the slightest tinge of guilt when you directly disobeyed God's strict prohibitions against cutting the hair around your temples (Lev. 19:27); Playing catch with a real football (Lev. 11:6-8); Eating shellfish (Lev. 11:10); planting different plants in the same garden or wearing a cotton/polyester blend Boy Scout Uniform (Lev. 19:19)?

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by kudu)