How Can a Youth Program Member who Proclaims Atheism make an ethical choice to be in Scouting?

[NJCubScouter]

I feel compelled to respond to Merlyn's statements about the religious beliefs of Jewish people, as I suspect I am one of the few current members of this forum with direct, lifelong knowledge of the subject.

 

In response to the question of "How can an atheist Scout earn a religious emblem?", Merlyn says:

 

Depends on the emblem. There are religions where belief in a god isn't a requirement. Buddhists, Jews, and Wiccans can also be atheists.

 

and later Merlyn says:

 

Buddhists, Jews, Wiccans, UUs, etc can all refuse to believe in the existence of a supreme being, while still being members of those religions.

 

I am not going to deal with Wiccans, Buddhists, or UUs, I just wanted to keep the quotes intact.

 

While it is true that one can be a "Jew" (or "Jewish") without believing in God, I don't think one can be a member of the "Jewish religion" without believing in God. While this may seem to be a paradox, the key is that the terms Jew, Jewish etc. refer to at least two different, overlapping but not identical groups of people. One is an ethnic/cultural group, made up of the descendants of those who traditionally followed the Jewish religion. The other are the followers of the Jewish religion, which has as its central tenet, the belief that there is one God (no more, no less.) One can therefore be "Jewish" (in the first sense) while believing only part of, or none of, the Jewish religion, and therefore one can be an atheist and still say that he/she is Jewish. (In fact, some people call themselves "Jewish atheists". I don't really want to get into other permutations, such as "Jews" who actually believe in a different religion, because it starts to get not only very complicated, but also very controversial. The same goes for people who are not "born Jewish" but are converts to the Jewish religion, because the question of who actually counts as a convert also is controversial and is beyond the scope of this semester's curriculum.)

 

Where was I? Oh yes. Judaism is not "a religion where belief in a god is not a requirement." If you actually believe in the Jewish religion, you do believe in God. This does not account for people who are "faking", about which more in a moment, but I don't think that is what we are really talking about here.

 

As for the Jewish religious award, I looked up the requirements for the Ner Tamid award ("Eternal Flame" in English; it is the basic "Boy Scout age" award, there are others for Cub Scouts and for older Boy Scouts and Venturers.) I don't see how a committed atheist, who believes there is no God, could earn this award without doing a tremendous amount of "faking." He would have to know, participate in and discuss the basic prayers, rituals, some portions of the Bible, etc., all of which are premised on a belief in God. He would have to be Bar Mitzvahed or working towards it. (And that is a lot of work, definitely not something you do just because you have a few hundred spare hours when you are 13 years old. And again, it is all based on God, the Torah (Old Testament), etc.)

 

Now, if a boy were to go to a rabbi and say, "I'm not really sure I believe in all this, I'm sort of an agnostic, but I'd like to work on the award", many rabbis (after discussion with the parents) would probably explain why it would be difficult but the bottom line would be, if you really want to do it and are going to do the work, and keep an open mind, let's give it a try. (As I suspect would the clergy of a number of other religions, including at least some denominations of Christianity; some would not, and I suspect an Orthodox Jewish rabbi might suggest the boy go elsewhere, but that is a nuance I don't want to get into.) In the course of earning the award, the boy would be constantly professing a belief in God. Now let's assume the boy instead tells the rabbi, "I definitely believe there is no God and there is no way I will ever change my mind, no God, no way, but I want to get the award." I don't think the rabbi is going to waste his/her time, or the boy's time, if this is the case. By Jewish law and tradition, the boy is a member of the Jewish people, because his mother is Jewish. But to say he is a member of the Jewish religion, and can earn awards based on that religion, really isn't correct.

 

Sorry to be so long-winded, this just kind of bothered me and I wanted to clarify it, because I know that this is a subject that is often misunderstood.

[Narraticong]

Hmmmm. I usually think of "A Scout is Reverent" when I consider faith and Scouting. But then there is "Duty to God"- big "G" not little "g". So what does that mean? I am not asking how does BSA interpret it so to be politically correct and inclusive of all religions. But using the "reasonable man", approach, I think it may bring us back to a Jewish / Christian / Muslim perspective. Do other "religions" refer to their deity as "God"? What did the founders of Scouting intend? I must admit I am not enough of a Scouting history buff to know exactly.

 

I may have to reconsider my thoughts on inclusiveness...

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Stosh writes:

One has to remember to use commonly accepted definitions and not definitions that one makes up to support their biases.

 

Exactly. Atheism is not a religion. It simply indicates a person who is not a theist.

 

A person's religion is that system in which they believe.

 

And all the term "atheist" tells you is that a person doesn't believe in god(s). That is not a system of belief.

 

Does an atheist believe in life after death? I'd wager most don't, but some do. There are some life-after-death beliefs that don't involve gods.

 

All these accepted definitions can and do fit into the belief systems of Athists.

 

What "belief system?"

 

They believe in the non-existance of god.

 

So is belief in the non-existence of Zeus a religion too?

Ra? Horus? Quetzalcoatl? Lots of "religions" out there if not believing in a god is sufficient.

 

If one says a person is an Atheist, one has a fairly good idea of what they do or don't believe in.

 

Name something apart from "that person doesn't believe gods exist."

 

I guess if I would write my own dictionary, I can make words mean whatever I want them to mean, but until then, I'll just go along with what are the accepted common definitions.

 

OK, what dictionary do you use that describes atheism as a religion? If I look up, say, "Hinduism," I can find lots of dictionaries that describe Hinduism as a religion. I don't see these same sources describing atheism as a religion.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

NJCubScouter, I know it's not likely that an atheist Jew would go for a religious award, I don't see anything in, say, the Ner Tamid requirements that would explicitly rule out an atheist Jew on the basis of their non-belief. If it's difficult, it also would look difficult for, say, a Reform Jew who doesn't keep kosher and has never had a Bar Mitzvah.

[Trevorum]

Anyone can certainly hold an opinion that atheism is a religion.

 

However, people who professionally study human belief systems (these people are called anthropologists) generally adhere to the criteria I outlined when classifying systems of thought as religions. These professionals tend to agree that atheism is not a religion.

 

As noted by Merlyn, Dan, and others, atheists may also subscribe to recognized religious beliefs. For example, an atheist may religiously believe in reincaration, in wood nymphs, or in "The Force" without accepting the existence of gods.

 

[Stosh]

Because Jewishness is both a religion and a race, a case could be made for an Atheist Jew, just like their are Atheist Negros and Atheist Asians. It is kind of a sham argument to mix the religion and the racial into one package which is an empty argument.

 

As far as other arguments go, one must realize that once one makes up their mind by whatever definitions they are using, whether commonly accepted or created in their own minds, the arguments used are weak at best and more often than not invalid.

 

Rev. Stosh, M. Div.

[Kudu]

Narraticong writes:

 

What did the founders of Scouting intend? I must admit I am not enough of a Scouting history buff to know exactly.

 

The best exploration of what THE Founder of Scouting, Lord Baden-Powell, intended can be found in Tim Jeal's biography Baden-Powell. You can find some relevant excerpts regarding the religious context of the creation of Scouting at:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

Baden-Powell's Boy Scout Association had various suggested "Outlander" versions of the Scout Promise, substituting "Allah," "my Dharma," or other more appropriate words for the god named "God."

 

The intentions of the BSA founders are murky, at least to me. The largely Protestant YMCA was most likely the driving force behind adding their three-tiered "mind, body, and spirit," concept to B-P's Scout Promise; "A Scout is Reverent" to B-P's Scout Law; and moving the BSA away from Baden-Powell's subtle spiritual understanding of Scouting in general (B-P intended Scouting to lead boys to their god through an outdoor "educational" game, the exact opposite of the kind of indoor classroom "instruction" found in Sunday school and religious awards). See:

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm

 

More recent developments in the religious politics of the BSA are probably intentionally obscure: According to one Catholic Scouting historian, the Catholic Church refused to join the BSA until the BSA agreed that it would NOT have the power to approve the content of religious awards, but the Religious Relationships Committee (RRC) now claims that it has that power. The BSA's rules and regulations are printed in a controlled document, so I wonder if anyone has actually verified if the RRC actually does have that power, and if so when was this rule changed?

 

Likewise, when did someone drag out the Declaration of Religious Principle and make signing it a condition of joining the BSA?

 

Probably the same people who dreamed up the Mission Statement :-/

 

Kudu(This message has been edited by kudu)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Stosh writes:

It is kind of a sham argument to mix the religion and the racial into one package which is an empty argument.

 

About all I've said is that a Jew can also be an atheist, which is true. Jewish atheists are accepted as Jews by other Jews.

 

As far as other arguments go, one must realize that once one makes up their mind by whatever definitions they are using, whether commonly accepted or created in their own minds, the arguments used are weak at best and more often than not invalid.

 

What's that got to do with atheism not being a religion? I still can't find a dictionary that says atheism is a religion, like they state for Hinduism.

[Trevorum]

"Because Jewishness is both a religion and a race, a case could be made for an Atheist Jew, just like their are Atheist Negros and Atheist Asians."

 

You are confusing ethnicity with race. A common mistake to be sure, but they are different phenomena. A better comparison with an athiest Jew would be an atheist Roma, or perhaps an atheist Dineh'.

 

(edited typo)(This message has been edited by trevorum)

[Stosh]

 

 

Main Entry: 1ethnic

Pronunciation: \ˈeth-nik\

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin ethnicus, from Greek ethnikos national, gentile, from ethnos nation, people; akin to Greek ēthos custom more at sib

Date: 15th century

1: heathen

2 a: of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background b: being a member of a specified ethnic group c: of, relating to, or characteristic of ethnics

 

One of the reasons why people confuse it is because it means the same thing although ethnic can be viewed in a broader scope than just racial, but ethnic does relate to classification based on racial origin by definition.

 

Thus a person of Jewish ethnic background, be it race, language, cultural etc. they can be an Atheist as long as they are not of the belief that there is a god. Using the above accepted definition, as long as one leaves religion (i.e. any believe there is a god) out of the equasion one can have an Atheistic Jew.

 

The confusion comes when one doesn't understand the full implications of the meanings of words. As a matter of fact the etymology indicates the word's roots in the word gentile i.e. a non-believer, i.e. gentile. And as a point of reference, anyone who does not believe in the same God I do is an Athiest relative to me. I'm sure they're of the same opinion of me, but that has no effect on my belief system.

 

Stosh

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Stosh writes:

Thus a person of Jewish ethnic background, be it race, language, cultural etc. they can be an Atheist as long as they are not of the belief that there is a god.

 

As can someone who is Jewish because his mother is Jewish.

 

Using the above accepted definition, as long as one leaves religion (i.e. any believe there is a god) out of the equasion one can have an Atheistic Jew.

 

"religion (i.e. any believe there is a god)"? What? Religion is not "any belief there is a god". There are even a few religions that are explicitly atheistic, like Raelism.

 

I tend to use the definitions of "Jew" that most Jews use, which would make the son of a Jewish mother a Jew, even if he's also an atheist.

 

The confusion comes when one doesn't understand the full implications of the meanings of words.

 

As you do with "atheism," which you have incorrectly termed a religion in this thread and a thread from last year. I'm still waiting for you to produce a dictionary that describes atheism as a religion.

[SSScout]

*sigh*

The only reason to question a Scouts religious belief is because it seems to be REQUIRED during the Eagle process. Scouting has to be self selective, so faith is personal and an avowed athiest will have an automatic problem promising to "do my duty to God", unless he thinks that that duty ,for him at least, is to NOT believe in him/it/her.

I am again reminded of my time as a Chaplain at the 05Jamboree. I met at least 10 Scouts who had to tell me they "weren't sure about that God stuff." Extrapolating to my fellow chaplains, maybe 30 or 40 Scouts out of the 35,000 in attendance had that...problem. This is a problem? Everybody has to find their own place in this universe and accept/reject/invent a reason for existence.

 

"Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for

oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every

form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies

with every sect and denomination. What sect or

denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents'

wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect

their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence,

whatever form of religion the boy professes."

 

 

And BP's definition, I feel still rings true to me. I have no reason to force the issue, only to be available if the conversation turns that way.

At a local Camporee, Our Troop hosted a new Troop sponsored by a Muslim Mosque. The lunch table was the scene of some realy good conversations among the Scouts. It was rducational for all.

 

Don't we need a new category? "Religion and Chaplaincy" perhaps? *see another thread*.

 

 

[Stosh]

St. Paul was Jewish because his mother was a Jew, his father was a gentile or a "God-fearer" which was a person of Jewish beliefs, but not racial lineage, thus Paul could be both Jew and Roman citizen.

 

However, in America, they make the rules up differently. If a person has one parent Negro, the child is Negro. If one parent is Indian, the child is Indian, etc. Thus we have mulattos running around claiming to be Negro (i.e. our current political environment), when by racial definition they are not.

 

One can play word games all they wish, and argue both sides of any argument with the same supporting evidence, so in the long run it makes very little difference. Toss in a little hypocracy (i.e. Pocahantas Law) and everyone basically tosses it all under the rug and goes to be feeling pretty good anyway.

 

To emphasize that Atheism is not a religion and then say that some religions are Atheistic ("Raelism"?) doesn't do much to further the discussion.

 

Stosh

[Trevorum]

SSScout, I wish I had met you at the 05 Jambo. I was working in that tent also, at the UU booth. Your outlook of welcoming acceptance, encouraging the development of spirituality in young people from whatever direction it comes is true to BP. I wish more BSA chaplains really understood this in their heart.

[SSScout]

Trev: Thank you.

 

Correction: It was late when I wrote that and I missed this: Make that 300 to 400 "Scouts... that had that 'problem' ". Decimals.

 

Scouting is used by some faiths as 1) basis of their youth ministry 2) an addendum to their total ministry or 3) an outreach to the greater community. I have met (altho it is rare) Scout charter sponsors who are rather proprietary about the Scout program, feeling that it is THEIR program and hence one MUST be of THEIR faith to join. When I point out that other faiths sponsor Scout units and other faiths CAN be Scouts, it sometimes is a head shaker for them.

It is true that some faith COs are specific in their membership requirements (see other threads) and they are within their rights to do so, but there are always less restrictive COs around. It is their loss when they limit their membership, but so be it. The BSA program is a model that others have copied and we know that such emulation is the highest form of compliment.

So to some BSA is TOO restrictive and to some BSA isn't restrictive enough. If our standard is the Scout Promise and the Scout Law, then we must continue to point out to our boys and girls what it is they are asked to agree to and hope our example is sufficient to activate their conscience.

So what is BSA about? Is it not inculcatating Self sufficiency, knowledge, confidence, skill in emergencies, the worth of cooperation, the need for leadership (however learned), all grounded and encouraged by a faith in a "higher power".

I can give thanks for coming back from an adventure whole and unhurt and I can also give thanks for the skill of my surgeon for setting my broken bone.

 

YiS