discussing the presidential election, a challenge of sorts

[OldGreyEagle]

So, what do you say about a thread that talks about the candidates only in a positive manner. For example I like Obama because ... or I like McCain because ...

 

No trashing of the other side, only what the candidate you support's position and why you like it. Can it be done? Who will crack first? And of course as always, Godwins Law is in effect!

[scoutldr]

Godwin's Law?

 

I get just as disgusted with political ads as the next guy. Don't tell me why the other guy sucks. Tell me what YOU are going to do and how are you going to pay for it.

 

Why do I like McCain over Obama? While in retrospect, I believe the Iraq war was/is wrong, I think we can't just walk away from it, like Obama and Hillary want to do. McCain has the experience to extract us from this, while maintaining the political stability of the region. To me, the Iraq war is THE most important issue right now. NO MORE American sons and daughters should die for those people, who do NOT want democracy and are NOT going to change their attitudes toward us. As soon as we leave, I predict an Islamic theocracy will take over, not the "democracy" that we arrogantly think they need. But Bush started it, now it has to be turned over to someone who has the military, legislative, and diplomatic experience to finish it properly.

 

YES, we need change, and we need health care reform and tax reform and solutions to the energy problem. But not while the country is at war. We need to focus and WIN the global war on terrorism, which is the #1 threat to our way of life. We defeated both Germany AND Japan in four years, because the country was FOCUSED on the mission, and all efforts went toward winning. The attitude among Americans was "what can I sacrifice to help win the war", not "what is the Government going to do for me." "Country First"

[packsaddle]

OGE, I haven't dignified that other thread with a single word. I consider such charged discussions a waste of time. The reason (and I think it will apply to this one as well) is that every individual in such discussions is there to defend their own idea, whatever that is, and not to examine it. There is no sincere and objective desire to have a real discussion. I'll be surprised if such occurs in this one. But I wish you luck.

[Trevorum]

That's such a Fascist thing to say.

 

 

[scoutldr]

"I consider such charged discussions a waste of time"

 

Glad our founding fathers didn't feel that way.

 

Anyway, I tried. Sorry, OGE.

[packsaddle]

Thanks Trevorum, you're one of the few who can get away with that.

So Scoutldr, do you find the discussions in that other thread full of information, or perhaps uplifting? Do you think you can influence even a single mind by contributing to it? You've tried there, after all.

 

I like the McCain I knew back in 2000. I felt great sorrow for what Republicans did to him during that campaign. I was ashamed of them as a matter of fact. McCain's restraint in response was admirable, I consider it superlative. I still think McCain is a decent, honest, honorable guy. I don't know Palin from Adam's dog.

 

I like Obama because he's very bright, decent, honest, honorable, and obviously has some personal knowledge of what it's like to live as a regular citizen. I like Biden because (after having to forgive an occasional foot-in-mouth) he's extremely knowledgeable of the world, from local to foreign. He also is very bright, decent, honest, and honorable. I wish he was at the top of the ticket.

I also liked some of the other candidates with their variety of strengths (and some weaknesses).

 

There isn't even a campaign aid for even the least likely candidate that couldn't bring greater honesty and integrity to the office than George W. Bush did. He and his band of cronies have no honor. And sadly, I think the next administration is going to be shackled to Dubya's mistakes.

 

Therefore, I stand by what I've said for a very long time. I am going to vote for McCain/Palin. Someone please convince me otherwise.

 

Edited part: typo, and OGE, I'm wondering about your comment about Godwin's Law (now that Trevorum essentially made this one conform to it, tee hee). Were you commanding us to do that (the Law part) or did you really think we'd hold back, really? (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[NJCubScouter]

For anyone wondering, here is an article about Godwin's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law.

 

I am not sure what it has to do with this discussion (Trevorum's joking aside.)

[gwd-scouter]

Hey packsaddle. Convince you otherwise than voting for McCain? Maybe you said it yourself in your post about how you liked the McCain in 2000 and your reasons for liking Obama?

 

As to this thread: I don't think it is really possible to have a sincere and objective discussion on the forum. Too easy to post extreme views rather than intelligent debate.

[talen333]

It seems that people are having a hard time explaining what they like about their candidate of choice because a great many people are feeling much the way I do. I am not so much voting for a candidate as I am voting against the other one.

I like Palin because she seems to be the one with the viewpoints that most closely mirror my own. That said I am voting McCain because he has the only real conservative in the race on his ticket.

[Lisabob]

OK I know better than to think I'm going to change anybody's minds here, but here are some fairly specific reasons why I support Obama.

 

1) His stance on education reform makes a lot of sense to me. In general I like his overall approach to education, but I'll mention three specific parts of his plan that I agree with and would be happy to see enacted (if he is elected and can convince Congress, of course). They are:

* Emphasis on early childhood education and quality day care, including fully funding and expanding the reach of programs like Head Start, which have all kinds of statistical evidence of improving poor children's likelihood of success in school. Focus here where there's a statistically verifiable "big bang for the buck" means fewer problems (and less money needed) down the road.

** Support for middle school programs targeting "at risk" students to reduce their likelihood of dropping out of school when they hit high school. I live near Detroit, which has the lowest 4-year graduation rate in the nation (about 20%). Many of the first-year college students I teach are among that lucky 20% who actually made it through Detroit Public Schools and the stories I hear from them every single year about who drops out, when, and why, convince me that change has to happen in the early middle school years in order to have any impact on the national H.S. graduation/drop-out rate. So I think Obama's focus here is intelligent and I don't hear anything about this from McCain.

***Obama's plan to offer a $4000 college tuition grant for first-year college students, in exchange for a commitment to community service. Actually as Scouters, I would think we'd all be delighted to see more weight placed on community service. We all know how important it is in developing young people's character and connection to others, as opposed to a "me, me, me" attitude that leads to narcissism, alienation and the breakdown of society.

 

2) His different attitude toward foreign policy. I've never been overly enamored of the "with us or against us" approach of GW Bush. Aside from the fact that I don't think it works for us, it is also a tremendously costly endeavor to be the world's sole police force and it squanders our "soft power" resources like reputation and true leadership. Just as we all know that the new SPL or PL who attempts to lead through bullying and bossing probably won't succeed with that style of "leadership" in the long run, I think the same can be said of the country. This is not to say we shouldn't/couldn't use military force or the threat of force if the situation demands it, but that force should not be the first option on the table. So I like that Obama is more prepared to use diplomacy and to re-build damaged alliances as first resorts.

 

I also agree in general with the Democratic party on issues such as health care, the environment, and civil rights matters. But those are sort of big-picture ideological sentiments, not the detailed reasons I choose a particular candidate.

 

I will say this about McCain: I voted for him in the Republican primary earlier this year because, of the Republicans running, I felt he was the best option (and because MI's Dem primary was so screwed up that I felt it wasn't worth participating in that one this time around). I don't absolutely dislike McCain's views in the way that I dislike Bush's policies. I think the McCain of 2000 would have been a fine president, in fact, certainly preferable (in my view) to Bush.

 

There are also some things I'm not thrilled about within the Democratic party and some areas where I disagree with Obama in particular. But on balance, I agree more with Obama than McCain on specifics and I agree more with the Democratic party than the Republican party on general ideological matters. That's why I'll be voting for Obama.

 

 

[packsaddle]

gwd, I admit it is a pleasure to have a choice between honorable candidates. And I really am torn on the issues. On one hand, I really like the idea of big government dictating morality. That puts me squarely in the Republican camp (anti-choice). Besides, I'm male and never could have faced this issue anyway. Who cares? And if someone I care about really wants to 'choose', I can fly them to some place where the choice still exists. This is all purely conjecture anyway, because while the Republicans had the whole ball of wax for 6 years, they did almost NOTHING about this issue. I suspect they aren't really that sincere about it anyway. Maybe that's a negative, maybe a plus. Depends, I guess on how one values honesty.

 

I could say something similar about spying on the citizenry, it gives me a secure feeling to know that criminals have fewer tools to commit crimes. At the same time, I kind of like my privacy, and the Republicans seem to want to remove that. And don't forget about GUNS - one of the defining issues of our time. We really need guns. We need more of them. Everywhere, schools, churches, courts. What a perfect world....

 

I believe in fiscal responsibility. If you can't afford something you shouldn't borrow (steal) from future generations to buy it now. But that was before I read David Stockman's admissions about the Reagan economic policies. They really thought they could spend the government into a position in which we couldn't afford social programs like welfare. They were wrong. Things turned around during the Clinton administration and people were horrified by the thought of using surpluses to pay down debt. Heaven forbid! And I guess in a way, heaven did. Bush sure showed us how to turn that around again. Don't get me wrong, I have significant investments in overseas and multinational corporations so sending trillions of dollars overseas has feathered my nest. I guess I should tip my hat to Bush for these obscene deficits but that 'fiscal responsibility' thing still worries me. That said, McCain is pledged to continue those costly policies so I suspect it will be gravy for me when he gets in.

Health care is really a non-issue. We (some of us at least) wring our hands when people who can't affod it get sick and die. Even if I didn't have a morbid fascination at the way the Republicans have cleverly adopted a Darwinian view of the world, I would still have to affirm the presence of the great majority of Americans who reject anything like universal health care. Praise Mammon from whom all blessings flow.

 

Education is also a non-issue. What there is as an issue is being determined by the states.

 

Energy is one of my favorites. Neither candidate has anything close to a realistic energy policy. It's a toss-up between non-policies based on profound ignorance or worse. Interestingly the American people seem to think otherwise. I suspect that the laws of thermodynamics are going to eventually make themselves known in very profound ways. I'll probably be dead, though, before that happens (hint: new motorcycle, really high speeds, post-reproductive thrills). However, our children may get to experience those fabled interesting times. I plan to explore these things a bit more next spring when I teach that course again.

 

I guess those are the high spots for issues. Things like stem-cell research and gay marriage are not really issues at the federal level. Thanks to all our dollars going elsewhere, a lot of research is also going elsewhere. The gay marriage train has left the station. No longer a real issue at all - kind of like birth control decades ago.

 

The real questions have to do with Congress. The Republicans may not get their majorities back. I'll just keep my fingers crossed.

[gwd-scouter]

"On one hand, I really like the idea of big government dictating morality."

 

"We really need guns. We need more of them. Everywhere, schools, churches, courts. What a perfect world...."

 

Pack, are you being sarcastic?

 

Edit to add: if you're not - since we have very divergent viewpoints, do you still want to have lunch next time you're in Greenwood? Could be a lively discussion.(This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

[packsaddle]

Sarcastic? Moi? I was just asked to serve on a legislative advisory panel so I'll be cruising into your area frequently this fall and winter. I'd be honored to supply you with a lively discussion any ol' time.

And I'm still on the prowl for those invasives in Lake Greenwood. I heard a rumor that they were intentionally introduced...for food. Interesting. Would you eat a benthic organism that grew in Lake Greenwood sediment? I think I'll take the bar-b-que.

[gwd-scouter]

Pack, around here most people wouldn't eat ANYTHING that comes out of Lake Greenwood.

 

Back to the topic. I'll go out on a limb here and admit that as many folks derisively say, "I drank the Kool-Aid." At least early in the primaries. I was overwhelmed by Obama's speech at the convention in 2004 and thought then that he would be running for president. I was delighted when he announced his candidacy, but didn't think he had much of a chance since I was pretty much on board with the conventional wisdom that Clinton had the nomination in the bag.

 

I will also admit that I came into this year's election cycle with a very slanted view and, while it may be wrong, I was not open minded at all to anything the republicans had to say. I've listened though. I listen to both sides - not to the pundits and news jockies, but to the speeches, town hall meetings, debates, etc. that are well covered on CSPAN.

 

I dislike the criticism that Obama is merely a great orator with no substance. I haven't heard heard details from McCain either. They both needed to secure the nomination first with lofty goals and party rhetoric, then move on to the details during the debates. Side by side, I doubt anyone would disagree that Obama is a much more inspirational speaker than McCain. I liked that. I've never felt so excited about voting. For the first time I am casting my ballot for someone I want to win, rather than against the person I want to lose.

 

Maybe that in itself is a good enough reason for me to vote for Obama. It is not the only reason, though. I like his idea of helping pay for college tuition if the students give back by joining the Peace Corps or working in under-served communities. I like his health care plan. It doesn't force everyone into a one-size fits all national plan. I have good insurance and I'll keep it. Why not allow regular folks to subscribe to the health care plan the Congress has? Good enough for our government folks, ought to be good enough for everyone else.

 

I am fortunate that my husband, sons, and I have always been very healthy and haven't given our health insurance much thought. That changed 2 1/2 years ago. For the past 2 1/2 years, I've been chasing a diagnosis for a mysterious and scary disorder. Without my health insurance I would not have been able to be as aggressive as I've been. It is because of this that I come to the realization that there are many in this country that are no so lucky.

 

Energy plan. It is an idealistic goal to become energy independent in 10 years. It was also a lofty goal to land on the moon "before this decade is out." Please folks, I am not comparing Obama to Kennedy. I am merely stating that, as Americans, we need a healthy dose of idealism again. We work best when put to a challenge. Personally, I think we can do it. We can't get there though without some pain, struggle, and sacrifice. Obama has said that too. I'm sure many folks think it's funny when the republicans hand out tire gauges as Obama's energy plan. The fact is, correct tire pressure does save gas. I was surprised to find out just how much. So while we're exploring the possibilities and working toward renewable energy, why not do everything we can as individuals to conserve and save now.

 

Those are a few of the reasons I'm voting Obama. One thing is bothering me now though. I watched a rally he and Biden had in Ohio yesterday. I don't like it when Obama attacks McCain's policies. Leave that to Biden and the surrogates. Obama needs to get back to telling people what he will do, in more detail now, and with the same intensity, hope, and optimism that lifted people up during the primaries.

[scoutldr]

"I have good insurance and I'll keep it. Why not allow regular folks to subscribe to the health care plan the Congress has? Good enough for our government folks, ought to be good enough for everyone else."

 

Call me a cynic, but as soon as there is National Health Insurance, your employers will be dropping their health plans like hot potatoes. It is a major expense for employers, and really cuts into their profits.

 

Congress has the Federal Employees Health Benefits Plan, of which I am also a member, as a federal employee. It is NOT free, I pay about $200 every pay day (biweekly) for "self and family", and can choose from a number of commercial insurance plans ranging from an HMO to Blue Cross/Blue Shield high option. Unfortunately, my "family" has gone from 4 to 2, but I still pay the same to subsidize those with 6 kids. The government subsidizes that premium, as an employee benefit, just like any number of any other employers offer.

 

I resent the fact that you want to offer MY employee benefit to anyone who wants it. What benefits does YOUR employer offer, perhaps I want those for me and my family, too, even though I haven't earned them.