He chose a white guy

[TheScout]

I think the God-hating zeal with an ever expanding federal government to enforce it is a warped agenda that has no basis in the dreams of the founding generation or the actual text of the Constitution.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

More handwaving than a Rose Bowl parade, TheScout. All three branches of the currently-Republican heavy federal government seem to think federal programs like Medicaid are constitutional.

[TheScout]

"All three branches of the currently-Republican heavy federal government seem to think federal programs like Medicaid are constitutional."

 

I know . . .

 

Constitutions can be interpreted wrong. Think of all the crackpot dictators and regimes with fancy Constitutions. The USSR had a very elaborate one with lots of protections.

 

I never said a support the current Republican Party's theory of constitutional interpretation. I think we need to be where Ron Paul, Robert Taft, Grover Cleveland, Alexander Stephens, John Calhoun, or Thomas Jefferson are/were. I would submit that such wise figures from all ages of American history would be the closest to a proper original understanding of the Constitution.

[packsaddle]

The Scout, you seem to be an anachronism. Sorry, just like the rest of us after the rapture of 1996, you've been left behind.

[TheScout]

You're probably right.

 

But there are a few of us hanging on that believe the Constitution doesn't change and still means what it did when it was written in 1787.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

People disagreed what it meant back then, too.

[DYB-Mike]

Scout,

 

The founding generation was not in total agreement on the strength and role of the federal government. Federalists such as Washington, Adams, Hamilton, and Madison (until his arm got twisted back home) had a different view than that of Jefferson and his supporters.

 

The interesting thing is that we are still debating this issue 232 years later without blowing apart. Well, the Union almost came apart once, but was saved with the help of a one-term Legislator from Illinois (I just couldnt resist throwing that in).

 

YIS

Mike

 

[TheScout]

Yeah the last time we had a one term legislator from Illinois, he waged a war to kill 700,000 Americans. Not to talk about the worst civil rights record by far! Nobody else held thousands of Americans as domestic political prisoners.

 

Just had to throw that in.

[GernBlansten]

I see, Obama is a socialist eh?

 

Well, lets look at another politcal idology and see who it fits...

 

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

 

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

 

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

 

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread

domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

 

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

 

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

 

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

 

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

 

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

 

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

 

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

 

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

 

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

 

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

[TheScout]

If I had to choose I would pick a facist over a socialist anyday.

 

I just really hate socialism. : )

[DYB-Mike]

Scout,

 

The worst civil rights record ever? I supposed the human enslavement that existed under previous presidents, Washington, Adams, and Jefferson included, doesnt count? Probably not in your mind since they were mere chattel at that time and not citizens. Interesting take on Lincoln by the way. Ill keep it in mind next time I visit the Lincoln Memorial.

 

As to you Christian Western Civilization you seem to forget that the roots of that civilization are found in the pagan civilizations of Greece and Rome. In fact, perhaps the most important thing the Catholic Church did during the Dark and Middle Ages was to preserve the learning and traditions of these pagan civilizations to allow them to bloom again in the Renaissance.

 

You do possess a lot of historical knowledge but one thing you appear to lack is a feel for the tides of history. Civilizations and governments have come and gone. Im sure the citizens in all these eras thought their state was the most powerful, the most advanced and some, like the Egyptians and the Romans, could truly make that boast given their time and place. I think the biggest mistake the U.S. can make is to rest on its past achievements and have the arrogance to say that it is perfect and cannot do better. That is simply not true. It is also arrogance not to acknowledge the mistakes made along the way and learn from them.

 

I've read the original 1908 edition of Scouting for Boys. In it Baden-Powell recommends a display showing how John Nicholson, an Englishman helping to govern India, forced Mehtab Singh, a local chieftain, to remove his shoes in the Englishmans presence as a sign of being in the presence of a superior. Baden-Powell goes on to recommend that should a longer scene be needed the Nicholson character could go on to address the chiefs on the might of Britain, which, though a small country, is all powerful for the good of the world...". It is exactly a short 100 years later and look at the positions of Britain and India today. I think Mehtab Singh can keep his shoes on now!

 

And yes, India is now a democracy, which was invented by the pagan Greeks.

 

YIS,

Mike

 

[Gold Winger]

" It is exactly a short 100 years later and look at the positions of Britain and India today. I think Mehtab Singh can keep his shoes on now!"

 

I think that more Indians are trying to move to the UK than Brits trying to move to India.(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[TheScout]

There is a very interesting book on Mr. Lincoln, The Real Lincoln by Thomas DiLorenzo. I think all could agree that Lincoln has been the subject of a patriotic myths to this day. DiLorenzo submits that Lincoln's real record is quite poor. Pointing out again, 700,000 deaths, violations of the 1st Amendment, suspensions of habeous corpus, the massive unprecedented expansion of executive power.

 

Every other Western country ended slavery peacefully and at the cost of the war the US could have paid every slaveowner compensation with much left over.

 

And of course we all know slavery was constitutionally protected under Washignton and Jefferson so I think it is improper to stain their character with condemnations of allowing slavery.

 

I would submit that the great advanced civilizations like you mention fall because they change who they are, not because they refuse change like you submit. The Rome that fell to the barbarian hordes was nothing like the little republic that conquered the known world in the 1st Century BC. And the Eqypt that built the Pyramids was not the same as the one that was continually raped by invaders from without in the following centuries. And the examples continue. As the Mongol hordes settled among the conquered populations, they lost the skills which made built the greatest land empire in history and it disintegrated. Or the think of the great enthusiastic crusades of the Ottomans who likewise stagnated and grew complacent in victory who went the same way.

 

I would contend that great civilizations tend to get lazy and decedant and lose the virtues which made them great in the first place.

 

Of course the Greeks invented democracy, but it was Britannia who brought it around the world such as to the masses of India. I would still submit the United Kingdom on its tiny islands has more world clout in some respects than Indian today. And military force projection as well. Even huge India does not possess a fleet which could have carried out a Falklands-like campaign. Not to mention the the UK's formidable nuclear arsenal.

[NJCubScouter]

John, if Obama is a socialist because he supports Medicare and Medicaid, then President Bush and John McCain -- not to mention most other current major Republican leaders -- must be socialists also. I have not heard of any of them proposing to eliminate, or even significantly curtail, these programs. In fact, the differences in economic policies between the two major parties are nowhere near big enough that one can say that they believe in two different economic systems. Both the Democrats and Republicans (at the national level at least) believe in capitalism but also in government programs to mitigate some of the more unpleasant effects of pure capitalism. They differ in the details, but that's about it. Our two major parties are much closer in economic policies than the competing parties in most other countries. In many European countries (like France), there are parties that call themselves "Socialist" and actually win elections. That doesn't happen here. So I think we should think twice before throwing around these kinds of labels.

[TheScout]

Parties and leaders do many things to win elections and hold power.

 

I think most Republicans actually believe in small government and individual responsibility but the corruptions of power and the need to bribe the electorate with promises to win elections leads them away from that.

 

I think the most Democracts in their perfect world would have, for example, a federally run national health system - thats just one example.

 

In any way though you are correct about the similar economic views of the parties compared to Europe. I would submit that the Republicans are less socialist than the Democrats. And socialism is bad, so the less socialism the better.