Progressive Parents...

[GernBlansten]

I don't advocate changing the product. The product is fine. Its the packaging, distribution, and marketing that is flawed. The Gay and Faith issue is not simply part of the delivered product. There are no program elements that would be affected if those two criteria were dropped from the membership requirements. Especially, if the decision to discriminate where left to the CO, like the female leadership one currently is with LDS units.

 

[croushorn]

I think the 2nd one is the approach Mazzuca is taking; it's about time. Let's see hwo well we do when we start defining ourselves to America, instead of letting others do it for us in their own twisted way!(This message has been edited by Ursus Snorous Roarus)

[TheScout]

Twisted way? I don't understand.

 

The real question is, which America? The United States is much different than it was in 1910.

[croushorn]

Twisted - sure. There are lots of groups that aggressively smear BSA any chance they get. I'll just leave it at that.

[fgoodwin]

Gern:

Packsaddle:

 

Let's try to look at this logically (if such a thing is possible):

 

If A then B

If not A then B

 

There is no way that both of those statements can be true simultaneously.

 

If BSA discriminates, then it loses members

If Scouts Canada doesn't discriminate, it loses members (even moreso than BSA)

 

I know those who want to bash BSA like to point to its membership policies as the root of all evil, but no one wants to even consider the counter-example of Scouts Canada.

 

Until someone can explain whats going on in Canada, then as far as I'm concerned, you haven't made a case that BSA membership decline is a result of its membership policies.

[NeilLup]

"If A then B

If not A then B

 

There is no way that both of those statements can be true simultaneously.

 

If BSA discriminates, then it loses members

If Scouts Canada doesn't discriminate, it loses members (even moreso than BSA) "

 

Hello Fgoodwin,

 

I would suggest that the comparison is only valid if the programs, organizational structures, markets, market penetration, etc. are identical or close to it. Otherwise, one can draw some very wrong conclusions.

 

Or to put it another way, BSA and Scouts Canada are not both A.

[evmori]

Actually, the BSA membership has been on the rise over the last few months.

[packsaddle]

Fgoodwin,

In my view, there simiply is no way to decide one way or the other. In this respect I'm sort of in agreement with your desire to understand the Canada situation.

 

But what I'm really saying is that neither situation, Canada or the USA, amounts to a controlled experiment. There are so many other factors, different between the two countries, that a comparison may be great fun, but such comparison is unlikely to yield a clear answer to the fundamental question of what controls enrollment in either country, or a subsidiary (and more difficult) question of how either country's enrollment is influenced by changes in policy.

 

I simply observe that the marketplace will make its decision and in my view, regardless of how the market responds, we'll still be able to argue the mechanism. Think of it as the gift that keeps on giving.

[fgoodwin]

Neil and pack:

 

I agree that BSA is not Scouts Canada -- there are surely differences between the two programs and the target population beyond the differences in membership policies.

 

But since we don't have two BSAs to compare, comparing BSA to other scout organizations is the best we can do. And until the BSA bashers can explain the situation in Canada, I'm not willing to concede that BSA membership policy is to blame for its membership decline.

 

I think it is very likely a third factor (or factors) that both have in common that explains the decline, not the difference in membership policies.

[packsaddle]

That is entirely possible.

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually Ffred, I think differences between the GSUSA and BSA would be better since both involve American youth. The GSUSA has changed its membership requirements, how are they doing?

[eolesen]

Hard to say if their membership numbers are a reflection of their membership policies.

 

Their membership numbers seem to be holding flat to slightly down -- 3.7M in 2000 to 3.5M in 2007. But they've also been doing a lot of advertising in the past two or three years to try and bring back older girls who left the program.

 

By this time next year, the current 300+ GSUSA councils nationwide will have merged to approx 100. That tells me they're having some money problems, and it's hard not to draw a connection between the membership and their donations.

[fgoodwin]

OGE: that's a great suggestion -- I don't have the GSUSA numbers, but it would certainly be instructive to consider them.

 

Still, I don't think we can ignore the situation of Scouts Canada. Anyone who claims BSA is losing membership as a result of its membership policies would be well advised to consider Scouts Canada, where they are losing members at a faster rate than BSA, yet have a more open membership policy. I'm not saying BSA and Scouts Canada are identical in every way.

 

But just as is the case with GSUSA, it would be instructive to consider the situation in Canada before drawing any firm conclusions.

[BrentAllen]

***** thread hijack******

 

My daughter just got back in to Girl Scouts in 4th grade. I was surprised to see the American Flag is optional on their uniform. In fact, the national web page doesn't even show the flag on their display. Luckily our local Girl Scout shop had a display showing the location. What's up with that?

 

http://www.girlscouts.org/program/gs_central/insignia/where_to_place/junior/

 

****** end thread hijack*******

[Vicki]

Rooster, as I worked on the Greek to English translation of the 1 Corinthians 6 v.9 - you're working from an old translation. The original Greek reference was to male homosexual rape as wrongdoing. Makes more sense in the context of thieves, adulterers, etc.

 

Now, as a female type, I find it interesting that only male homosexual rape was considered worthy of condemnation, but then women were pretty much chattel anyway. That was another interesting thing about early Christians - the equality of women in the community until they started trying to accommodate themselves to society, at which point the female disciples like Lydia and Phoebe pretty much got written out. The ancient world was so much fun...

 

Vicki