What is status?

[ghermanno]

In a previous post: RE: Religious Emblem approved for Unitarian Universalist youth!

Posted: Wednesday, 3/26/2008: 7:24:02 AM quality

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Rescinded, wow! Looks like the UUs are back to Wiccan status with BSA. Hey, all you pagans need to move back to the end of the line, UUs still have dibs on this one....

 

I am just curious. What is the BSA standing on Wiccans and Pagans? I haven't read anything, haven't really researched it, so was wondering.

 

[Eamonn]

"What is the BSA standing on Wiccans and Pagans?"

As far as I know. -Which is no great distance!

Wiccans and Pagans are welcomed as members.

The BSA does not at this time permit or maybe recognize might be a better word? Any religious awards that they might have to be worn on a BSA uniform.

Wiccans do have a youth organization that seems to me to be very much like Scouting.

I'm not sure why the BSA doesn't recognize any Wiccans religious awards? It might be that maybe there is not enough Wiccans? Or maybe the Wiccans organization is not set up to be able to manage what is needed for a structured religious award?

Eamonn

[DanKroh]

Hi ghermanno,

 

The "official" BSA policy on Pagans (including Wiccans) is that we are welcome as members. However, they have gone to some lengths to insure that the Wiccan religious emblems (developed and administered by The Covanent of the Goddess, a nationally recognized Wiccan Council) remain off the list of "BSA approved and recognized" emblems. Sadly, the way they have done this is has been, rather than to address whether the actual content of the curriculum is a problem or not, to create a bogus "25 unit rule", which says that a religion must have be a chartering partner to 25 units to have their emblem even considered for approval.

 

Officially, Pagan groups requesting to be chartering partners have been turned down time and time again. I believe one coven snuck in under the radar a while ago, but their charter has since either lapsed or been revoked.

 

Unofficially, Pagan scouts have been kicked out of units, at the unit level, but later reinstated by National when they made a stink about it. Unofficially, the "welcome" to Pagan scouts in the BSA can be less than warm or enthusiastic.

 

But hey, we are just those "dirty, nasty Pagans" as Kathy Lee Gifford put it on national TV, so unofficially, who cares but us?

[Gold Winger]

Maybe it is all a matter of perception. I don't recall any TV shows about three very hot nuns battling Satan. Maybe BSA is afraid that troop meetings would become battlegrounds with demons hurling fireballs at Alyssa Milano.

 

I think that I've known about two handfuls of avowed Wiccans, all women. Nothing unusal about the group except that about half have been neo-hippies.

 

Likewise, I've known a handful of avowed Pagans, not the type on motorcycles. They've been all men. Most had shaved heads and strange tattoos.

 

I don't know if this is normal for the groups. No male Wiccans? Do most pagan men shave their heads and tattoo themselves with grotesque figures?

[packsaddle]

I tend to agree with Dan. I think there's more to it than a matter of perception. But as long as BSA seems unwilling to confront this issue, there is unlikely to be any resolution to the question in the title of this thread.

The Pagans in this area are a gender mix about the same as other faiths. I've only noticed markings using henna, on the women and a few teens...but I haven't paid that much attention. The really weird tattoos seem to be on the local skinheads - I have no idea what faith, if any, they follow.

[John-in-KC]

I was out staffing a Cub Resident Camp this past weekend. You would not believe the tatoos some adult men have.

 

Does ScoutNet even log youth religious awards? I used to send them in when I was an advancement coordinator in a unit, but I never saw them on a unit data dump. (When I saw my own SN record, the FOS and other $$$ were far better tracked than my training... sigh)

 

For the UU kid and his SM... that debate is up in the stratosphere. If he works to earn the age-appropriate award, the unit should give him the knot. Heck, it gives his future BORs something to talk about as the young man progresses.

 

For the Wiccan kid, have a friendly cup of coffee with the parents. I think it reasonable to ask at a BOR "Where do you worship? ... What do you do in worship? ... How does worship make you a better young man than you were yesterday?" The parents need to be able to help the young man grow in those kinds of questions.

 

As far as a religious award for Wicca, from what little I know of the organizational structure, it's so decentralized there may well never be an award.

 

As others and I discussed back in the "Scout's Own" thread, my duty as a Scouter is to promote a faith life in the young man ... and if it doesn't look like my faith life, that's OK . The responsibility of faith life belongs to the parents and to the Scout. Period.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[acco40]

Unofficially, Pagan scouts have been kicked out of units, at the unit level, but later reinstated by National when they made a stink about it.

 

Don't chartering organizations have a right to kick out Pagans if they wish? Or, are you suggesting they were kicked out for some contrived reason but the real reason was that they were Pagans?

 

I thought, a CO could remove all sinister folks (left handers like me) if they wished. Am I mistaken?

[ghermanno]

Thanks guys. I was curious.

 

I agree, it may take a while (maybe never) for a Wiccan/Pagan award due to diversity of the religion.

 

It is still sad to even hear, true or not, of the BSA still being religiosly "prejudiced". Does not matter what religion (with the exception maybe of Satanism). So long as it doesn't promote harm to others, who am I to judge thier religion?

 

Dan, sounds like the fight for the Pentagram on burial stones all over again. Who knows, maybe the covanent will win.

 

Eamon: Curious about the youth organization for Wiccans/Pagans. You can Pmail me if you feel more comfortable. ghermanno@hotmail.com

 

In the words of our "PAGAN" forefathers: "May the Great Scoutmaster, of ALL Scoutmasters be with you till we meet again!"

 

 

[Pack212Scouter]

The only problem that I could see with a wican or pagan religious award is that the beliefs within these descriptions are SO diverse. If nothing else, probably a good reason for the descibed BSA policy of needing 25 charter organizations. It would be extremely difficult for PRAY to organize a huge diversity such as this (not to mention probably not very cost fective for them). From what I can tell, the requirements for such a religious award in these areas would be so vague as to be almost meaningless. It would be more akin to a "this is my own religion" award.

[DanKroh]

ghermanno writes: "Does not matter what religion (with the exception maybe of Satanism). So long as it doesn't promote harm to others, who am I to judge thier religion?"

 

Actually, Satanism (real Satanism, not what's portrayed in the "movie of the week") doesn't promote harm to others. It just promotes putting oneself and self-interests in front of others. A very selfish religion, yes, but not what most people think it is.

 

Pack212Scouter writes: "The only problem that I could see with a [W]ic[c]an or [P]agan religious award is that the beliefs within these descriptions are SO diverse."

 

Well, yes and no. Wicca is the largest of the neo-Pagan movements, so it is not surprising they are one of the first to develop a religious emblem curriculum. However, their curriculum *could* be used for any of the "Earth-centered" religions, which make up about 90% of Paganism. There is nothing in the curriculum that is specific to Wicca.

 

"If nothing else, probably a good reason for the descibed BSA policy of needing 25 charter organizations. It would be extremely difficult for PRAY to organize a huge diversity such as this (not to mention probably not very cost [ef]fective for them)."

 

Well, here's a thought. Why not let each religion worry about administering their own programs? CoG seems perfectly happy to administer their own program, they are just asking the BSA to approve it for official uniform wear. The 25 unit rule is just a stumbling block to keep the "undesireables" out.

 

Or even better, how about the BSA getting out of the business of telling a religion what they can and can't require for their emblem, in order to have it meet with BSA's approval?

 

"From what I can tell, the requirements for such a religious award in these areas would be so vague as to be almost meaningless. It would be more akin to a "this is my own religion" award."

 

Well, if you don't know anything about different Pagan religions, I can understand how you might think that.

 

[Rooster7]

It is difficult to believe that the BSA will withstand the next generation of progressives - In 20 years or so, I imagine folks will be visiting this forum to discover the consensus view on what the requirements are or should be for the atheist award, and such enlightening spin off threads like - If an atheist has doubts, is he worthy of such an honor?

 

So, if a tree falls in the woods, and a Pagan is not there to worship it never mind.

 

[Eamonn]

Information about Spiral Scouts can be found at:

http://www.spiralscouts.org/

 

I'm not sure why?

But a friend of mine who sits on the National Relationships Committee did mention to me one night when we were having dinner that they (The committee) had been looking into/at a Religious Award from the Wiccans.

It was something that was just brought up after the salad!! So I don't have any of the details.

 

While my 2 cents is not even worth 2 cents!!

I was brought up in a Irish Roman Catholic family. At that time, at least as I seen it! We Roman Catholics were right and everyone else was just wrong or misguided!!

We seen the Church of England as something Henry VIII, started so that he could get a divorce and marry who he wanted. At Easter we prayed that Jews would one day see the light!

All in all I think we were a very smug group.

I never really took the time or bothered looking at or finding out about other religions. I was feeling safe that my religion was the true path and I along with all the other Catholics had the key to open the gates of Heaven.

While I'm still a practicing Roman Catholic, I now feel that while maybe? We still have the inside track, we do have to be more accepting of other religions and faiths.

I don't pretend to understand many other religions.Working in a correctional facility, I'm very aware of some of the not so common religions (At least uncommon to me!) It is all too easy for me to put down things I don't understand and maybe have misconceptions about?

Sometime back in this Forum, I was guilty of making fun of Druids. I did so not thinking that there are some people who really do believe what they are doing is right. Of course I might agree with them being right, but that doesn't give me the right to make fun of them.

I did of course apologize.

We now have a Sea Scout in the Ship who feels that he doesn't agree with the rites and ceremonies that many of the churches he has attended practice. He still believes that there is some God or higher power. He is exploring th idea of becoming a wiccan.

We have talked about this, he feels fine with the Scout Oath and "Duty to God". He is not an atheist.

To be honest I do tend to think he is just a teenager who is trying to find his way.

I see my role as doing my best to be there for him, when and if he needs me. His parents are both very nice people. His Mom serves as a Ship's Mate. She is a Christian, but not very active in any religion or church.

The PA DOC does permit Native Americans and other Indians to celebrate a hold a Green Corn Dance/ Feast.

Last December an inmate filed suit against the Utah Department of Corrections for denying him his right to practice an ancient Nordic religion while behind bars.In the lawsuit he claimed he has been a member of the Asatru faith since 2005, and in order to properly practice it he needs items including: a Thor's Hammer, a prayer cloth, a Mead Horn used for drinking Wassail, a drum made of wood and boar skin, a rune staff and a sword.

I'm not so sure I'd want to be the person giving an inmate a hammer and a sword!!

I kinda think he might not get what he wants.

Eamonn.

 

(While I'm not in any way involved with the Spiral Scouts, I think it's worth mentioning that it is open to anyone. -That is you don't have to be a Wiccan to become a member.)

 

 

[Mr. Boyce]

Interesting thread. I'm Catholic and was once in a troop chartered to Methodists. In my experience as a youth, we just never much talked about religion. There were occasional ecumenical Sunday services that we optional, and most of us optioned out, due to convenience.

 

I'm surprised to hear the Wiccans have a central authority. You hear so many differing accounts of what Wiccanism is, coming from various Wiccans, that I wasn't sure there was any unity among it all. It's a new old-fashioned religion; the term "pagan" is so hard to deal with, too, that it seems to mean whatever you want it to mean. Most of the time it refers to English/Anglo druid stuff, but the ancient Greeks and Romans were pagans, the ancient North Africans, too, and of course, the Mongols, Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, etc. Just what's a pagan?

[DanKroh]

Mr. Boyce writes: "I'm surprised to hear the Wiccans have a central authority. You hear so many differing accounts of what Wiccanism is, coming from various Wiccans, that I wasn't sure there was any unity among it all."

 

Again, the answer is that there is and there isn't. There isn't a central authority recognized by all Wiccans, but we are beginning to realize that in order to get recognition by certain authorities, having a central council to speak for us in one voice is a necessity. It is a difficult process, since there are different sects even within Wicca, not to mention that most of the IRAB (I Read a Book) "Pagans" seem to identify as Wiccan, even though they have not gone through any initiatory rituals. But I do hope that if not CoG, that some other entity will emerge who will be able to go to bat for us in administrative matters.

 

"It's a new old-fashioned religion; the term "pagan" is so hard to deal with, too, that it seems to mean whatever you want it to mean. Most of the time it refers to English/Anglo druid stuff, but the ancient Greeks and Romans were pagans, the ancient North Africans, too, and of course, the Mongols, Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, etc. Just what's a pagan?"

 

Pagan is an umbrella term that generally refers to anyone who believes in a polytheistic religion. Within Paganism, there are many, many different religions. Just as Christianity is an umbrella term for anyone who follows a religion that believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ. You do get some Pagans who do not adhere to any specific tradition, but self-identify as Pagans, just as there are self-identified Christians who don't actually adhere to the doctrine of any Christian Church.

 

The English/Anglo stuff is really just the most widely recognized part of Paganism by non-Pagans. There are traditions from Norse, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Native American (both North and South America), Slavic; really, the list is endless. If it existed historically, you can find people today who are practicing it, even if they are practicing a "recreated" version of it.

 

Then there are the religions that fit the "qualifications" to be Pagan, but don't self-identify as such, even though they may be put into that category by others. For instance, Hinduism is polytheistic, but generally don't self-identify as "Pagan", although many monotheists would consider them to be "pagan" because they are not one of the Abrahamic (JCI) religions. A strict definition of Paganism and who should or shouldn't be identified as a Pagan is something that is argued about even now. So I can understand the confusion of someone outside when we don't agree on it among ourselves.

[evmori]

Does not matter what religion (with the exception maybe of Satanism). So long as it doesn't promote harm to others, who am I to judge thier religion?

 

Well, then we would have to boot all Muslims!