Origins of Civilization

[Beavah]

Yah, Rooster, Lord of the Flies is a work of fiction, not a documentary. Yeh might as well cite Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde to justify believin' adults secretly turn into hairy monsters at night.

 

As for Christianity, yes, man is fallen and needs God's grace. Doesn't change the conclusion. Our nature, from our very creation, is to be children of God, made in his image and likeness, established in friendship with the Creator and harmony with creation. Even before the fall, man needed to learn God's will and needed God's grace. It was by rejecting those things that we fell. So 'tis only natural , we need to accept God's grace to rise again.

 

A teenager who becomes mouthy and rebellious hurts himself and his relationship with his parents, eh? That makes the parent work harder, give more, sacrifice more out of love. But it doesn't make the kid inherently bad.

 

And we are all da children of God.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[SR540Beaver]

Rooster,

 

Salvation does not make a person "good". It makes them forgiven and "sinless" before God. Free will still exists and even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a person can choose wrong over right.

[acco40]

I can also build a bunch of arguments that man invented religion or turns to "God" because of his selfish nature (I don't want to go to hell, I want to go to heaven, I want salvation, etc.).

 

Free will still exists and even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a person can choose wrong over right.

 

And I contend that a person can choose right over wrong without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[Eagledad]

Rooster>>I think when a three year old smacks his younger sister because she has the audacity to pick up one of his toys; it has nothing to do with survival. Its just a kid acting out and being selfish.>Explain a >50% divorce rate and the amount of child abuse thats reported here in the U.S. and elsewhere. What happened to all those great kids did they do through another developmental stage?>Yah, Rooster, Lord of the Flies is a work of fiction, not a documentary. Yeh might as well cite Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde to justify believin' adults secretly turn into hairy monsters at night.

[Rooster7]

Beavah,

 

Yah, Rooster, Lord of the Flies is a work of fiction, not a documentary

 

In literature, good fiction is good because of its believability. But if you find Lord of the Flies so unbelievable, perhaps you could expound on how you believe these boys would have behaved given the same circumstances?

 

A teenager who becomes mouthy and rebellious hurts himself and his relationship with his parents, eh? That makes the parent work harder, give more, sacrifice more out of love. But it doesn't make the kid inherently bad.

 

And we are all da children of God.

 

If we are all inherently good, then why is Jesus atoning sacrifice necessary for us to be acceptable before God our Father?

 

SR540Beaver,

 

Salvation does not make a person "good". It makes them forgiven and "sinless" before God. Free will still exists and even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a person can choose wrong over right.

 

Okay I didnt mean to imply that all Christians become inherently good (i.e. pure in heart, word, and action) through salvation. What I said was Without Gods intervention (His Sons sacrifice, His stirring of our hearts, and His Holy Spirit, etc.), man has no hope of being good. Without Gods grace, to some degree, all of our thoughts and actions are corrupted. But with that said, I agree that believers can and do make wrong choices.

 

Eagledad,

 

Most of the time when you see a kid who picks on another kid in these situations, the bully isnt getting enough attention from the parents. In the show, the Nanny visits the family some months later and the kids are completely different...

 

So, the good kid, in order to gain the attention he feels he deserves from his parents, strikes his sister whos perpetrated no wrong against him. Hmmm. If youre trying to convince me that this kid is inherently good, this example doesnt do it.

 

... And the solution nine times out of ten is the same as the Nanny: set consistent limits on the dogs so they learn what the master will and will not tolerate, and exercise the dog to burn off the excess energy

 

So, when the kid/dog learns that hell get smacked back or punished by some other means (i.e. his own self interests will not be served), then he learns to stop the bad behavior.

 

Learning behaviors does not make one inherently good or bad. Whats in ones heart thats the source of good and bad. If the entire country read the Bible daily, and we didnt have God in our hearts, wed still be motivated by our selfish desires.

 

As believers, perhaps this argument of inherently good or bad is just a red-herring. If we agree that apart from God, we can do no good then I think were on the same page. If not, then were no longer arguing as believers in the same God.

[Beavah]

In literature, good fiction is good because of its believability.

 

Balderdash. Good fiction is good because it tells an interesting story... usually, that involves heightening or exaggerating specific elements. I'd hate to see yeh throw out all science fiction, fantasy, most of Shakespeare, all of Milton or Dante, etc.

 

What yeh have in Lord of the Flies is a work of fiction which happens to align with some folks' prejudices. Kind of like a Michael Moore "documentary"

 

But if you find Lord of the Flies so unbelievable, perhaps you could expound on how you believe these boys would have behaved given the same circumstances?

 

Pretty much the same way we do as adults, but probably more just. Kids have a heightened sense of "fairness." They'd establish social customs and roles that fit the economics of their situation.

 

Whats in ones heart thats the source of good and bad.

 

And if there's not good in our hearts, what would ever motivate us to seek God?

 

If we agree that apart from God, we can do no good

 

I reckon I don't know what yeh mean by "apart", Rooster. When are we ever apart from God?

 

Where can I flee from your presence?

If I go up to the heavens, you are there;

if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.

If I rise on the wings of the dawn,

if I settle on the far side of the sea,

even there your hand will guide me,

your right hand will hold me fast. - Psalm 139

 

God gave us free will precisely because he looked upon his creation and found it to be Good! Perfect goodness shares the ability to choose and create and do good. It is fruitful and multiplies!

 

Any time we do good we do good independent of God, mate, because free will makes us independent. It's our choice to do his work and glorify his name. But even in our most abject wickedness, we are never apart from God.

 

Beavah

 

[BadenP]

Rooster, since you like to use Jesus as your model in being a "Good Christian" remember he accepted all, he ate constantly with pagans, healed anyone without first asking if they believed as he did, he led by example. His death on the cross was the most unselfish act of ultimate love one person can show another, yet another example for us. Jesus did not command his followers to build great churches, develop an elitist group of clergy, or create the myriad of so called Christian denominations that exsist today. Human beings have taken his teachings from scripture throughout history and corrupted them to suit their own selfish needs and desires. That is why you or any other person does not have the right to tell another how to believe, only God has the right to pronounce judgement.

 

God gave us all free will to choose our own path, and Jesus as an example of how to live our lives and treat others. Remember we are all children of God Christian and non Christian alike. Man is imperfect and capable of doing good or bad. The so called inherent stain of original sin against God, a myth created by clergy, can not be washed away by one human being baptizing another. Since God created all life it seems logical he created a way to salvation for all, not just the Christians.

[Eagledad]

>>So, the good kid, in order to gain the attention he feels he deserves from his parents, strikes his sister whos perpetrated no wrong against him. Hmmm. If youre trying to convince me that this kid is inherently good, this example doesnt do it.

[Rooster7]

Eagledad,

 

Well - I don't know about scary, but it certainly is an eye opener to me. There seems to be a consensus in this group - that kids, if not all of humanity, is inherently good. Yet, I detect a fair amount of bitterness from folks towards me for having an opinion that differs from theirs. Furthermore, others want to twist and infer my reasoning into some sort of justification for child abuse. Go figure.

 

Beavah,

 

John 15:4-6

4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

I submit that the same free will that allows you to do Gods pleasure also permits you to set yourself apart from Him although its not a good idea.

 

[vol_scouter]

acco40,

 

Your reasoning and logic is sound. The argument is something of a chicken and egg argument. The only way to resolve that argument is to somehow 'know' whether or not God exists. At this time, that is entirely a matter of belief which shades how we interpret data. Anthropologists who claim that they 'know' that values came first causing religions to be formed for various reasons are essentially doing the same thing that we are doing though better studied on early cultures. Until we know that there is a God or not we can never answer these questions. I do not think that arguing these issues ever gets anywhere.

[Rooster7]

For those that claim the Christian faith, I submit these verses for your consideration (concerning the nature of man):

 

Romans 7:4-6

4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

Galatians 5:16-18

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

 

Ephesians 2:1-5

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsit is by grace you have been saved.

[Rooster7]

BadenP,

 

Up until this point in your post, I have no disagreement:

 

Human beings have taken his teachings from scripture throughout history and corrupted them to suit their own selfish needs and desires.

 

Doesnt that just re-enforce my point with which youre arguing against Man is inherently bad (due to his corrupted nature)?

 

That is why you or any other person does not have the right to tell another how to believe, only God has the right to pronounce judgment.

 

I dont think I ever tell someone how to believe not sure what that means. But I will not shy away from telling someone what the Gospel says. I think the following scripture is clear and difficult to reinterpret:

 

Matthew 28:18-20

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, very end of the age."

 

 

Man is imperfect and capable of doing good or bad. The so called inherent stain of original sin against God, a myth created by clergy, can not be washed away by one human being baptizing another. Since God created all life it seems logical he created a way to salvation for all, not just the Christians.

 

Again, these thoughts are not consistent with the Gospel:

 

Ephesians 2:3&4

3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsit is by grace you have been saved.

 

Matthew 7:13&14

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

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[Beavah]

Yah, yeh seem to be really holdin' on to this one, Rooster. I don't reckon any of us are goin' to convince you otherwise, eh?

 

But I'm stuck on da problem of, if we are God's creation, how we can be inherently bad? God cannot create evil. If God so loved the world that he sent his son, how can we be inherently sinful? God cannot love sin or evil. Just ain't possible.

 

I reckon part of da problem is you're usin' a really awkward translation, eh? What keeps gettin' translated as "sinful nature" in your text is more properly "sinful passions" or "self indulgence." Perhaps yeh need to read footnote [a] . In each case, Paul is referrin' to our temptations, and that part of us which is tempted. Da passage in Romans is about adultery, for example, though it's all a part of a broader theological argument Paul is makin' in response to da circumcision debate which was being waged in those scattered early Christian communities, eh?

 

Yeh have to read the whole text for a bigger picture.

 

"I tell you solemnly, unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

 

Doesn't sound like Jesus felt children were inherently bad, eh? Indeed he goes on:

 

"See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven.... for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs!" Matthew 18:10; 19:14

 

Only later in life do our choices, good and ill, come home to roost. But good people are possible, eh? "There is no rotten tree that produces sound fruit.... a good man draws what is good frome the store of goodness in his heart." (Luke 6:42-45). So the Master certainly believed in good people. And he even called people "blessed", eh?

 

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,

theirs is the kingdom of heaven..."

 

I reckon da only people Jesus ever got truly angry with were the religious folk who kept condemning their fellow men as sinful or inherently bad, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Gold Winger]

" God cannot create evil."

 

Why not? God created everything. According to legend, God created Satan and Satan is evil, hence God created evil.

 

 

" God cannot create evil."

 

Paul is as irrelevant as Jim Jones, the only thing that should be considered are the words of the man who stilled the waters but even the records of those are tainted because there are no unbiased records of them.

 

[BadenP]

Rooster, Lets start with the premise that God is good and perfect, I think you believe that is true do you not? So how can a perfect and good God create something evil, for if that is true then God would have to be partly evil, and certainly would not be perfect and no Christian could possibly accept that idea. With our creation we are born in a state of perfection, not of sin as some churches proclaim, but God gave us free will to make choices and once we reach the age of reason we become responsible to remain free of sin and temptation. Since we are not God we can be seduced by sin and temptation and that is when we can choose to do good or evil, so we choose our own path not God. However scripture tells us we can repent when we fail and God will forgive us if we truly are sorry for the evil we have committed. The point is that even the most evil person can become good and vice versa, that is the perfection of God and his love for his creation.

 

Scripture quotes you referred to I think you take out of context for they were written for a very different time, culture,and people. It is kind of like when the supreme court takes a piece of the Constitution written over 230 years ago, such as the right to bear arms and tries to apply to todays society, that long ago the people in this brand new country needed arms for protection, to obtain food, and to defend against hostile forces. In todays society these needs are no longer valid, the same is true with scripture, taking them out of context of the society of 2,000 years ago. You have to be careful about such a literal translation of a scripture and applying it 21st Century society because the application may be very different today. During the Civil War southern preachers used literal interpretations of passages from the Old Testament concerning the keeping slaves to justify slavery in the south, we have to be careful of not doing something similar today. Rooster I respect your passion, peace brother.