The DRP debate club, Round WHAT??

[scoutmomma]

Also, if you think that atheists are the only people who demand that wall of separation, you are sadly mistaken.

 

 

I'm with packsaddle and Thomas Jefferson on this one.

 

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

[evmori]

No, it's to prevent dishonest organizations like the BSA from infringing on the rights of atheists.

 

And this is happening how?

 

And enough with the BSA being dishonest! The organization chartering a BSA unit has just as much responsibility for knowing all they can about the organization they are chartering. I say the public schools who chartered BSA units are the dishonest ones!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

Gonzo1, I'm not certain that the supposition that Merlyn actually wants to join is correct. In fact although in effect he's advocating for the right to join, I think his main point is one that I agree with...also to answer vol_scouter's comment about harm.

There are two forms of harm. The first, I think, addresses Merlyn's primary objection and that is that none of his (nor anyone else's) taxes can be used by the government to promote any particular religious view or organization. He (and many others of us) are very protective of that wall. This first harm to me occurs when my tax dollars are misused by government and if the misuse is unconstitutional, there is a clear legal remedy that has been applied, now, in the case of public schools chartering BSA units.

The second harm is one that Merlyn may not be concerned with but I am. The second harm is the one that my son suffered when he was a member of an organization that excluded some of his buddies, not to mention some really great potential leaders, on the basis of a belief system. BSA has a perfect right to inflict this harm, although I think it is lamentable. All boys should be able to join. But when the government, through public schools or some other agency, supports this with MY taxes I join Merlyn in objection. My tax dollars must not be used to unconstitutionally and illegally promote something that inflicts even small harm to my child, as well as, I think, to the rest of the community.

 

Edited part: pesky typos(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Gonzo1]

Packsaddle,

You know that you and I disagree RARELY. I disagree that any harm has been "inflicted" because membership is completely VOLUNTARY.

 

I'll agree that many boys who are not now members would benefit greatly from BSA programs, but no one is forced into joining. Plus, with school and other public entities not chartering units, it's a moot point, like water under a bridge.

 

For outdoors type programs, there are many groups someone could join, nobody is required to join BSA, so I disagree that any "harm" has been done.

 

Please see PM.

 

JG

[evmori]

pack,

 

I would agree with your statement about my tax dollars being spent unconstitutionally even though I am more concerned with my tax dollars being wasted on other junk.

 

You say some of your son's friends were not allowed to join the BSA. Probably because they don't meet the membership requirements. And you say this upset your son. You also state that all boys should be able to join. Can all boys be join the school band or football team or swim team? Sure they can join, but if they don't meet the standards set by those teams they will be cut. Same with the BSA. If they don't meet the membership requirements, they can't be members.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

vol_scouter writes:

you are not able to show harm from a school sponsoring a scout unit.

 

Of course I am; a school running a private club that only allows kids with "acceptable" religious views is discriminating against those it doesn't allow to join. And in the case of the BSA, the DRP suggests that atheists can't be the best kinds of citizens.

 

I couldn't play certain school sports because I was not physically competitive

 

That isn't religious discrimination, which is prohibited by the constitution. And the percentages don't matter; you can't ignore the civil rights of groups as long as that group is "small enough". In fact, I'd say the danger of illegal discrimination is even greater in that case.

 

I will remind you that many more than 3% of the country was incensed over money being paid for a photograph of a Crucifix in a pail of urine.

 

"Piss Christ" was not paid for with public money.

 

And the ACLU doesn't get public money either; like every other litigant, it can be awarded legal fees if a judge decides to award fees in cases they win. This is no different from, say, a church getting their legal fees paid if they win a case against the government -- that does not constitute the government paying for a church, it's the government losing a legal fight and being held liable for legal fees of the wronged party.

[Gonzo1]

So Merlyn, since you want to join us so badly, what style pack do you prefer? Do like Silva compasses or lensatic?

Raincoat or poncho?

 

Or, are you just agitating and don't really want to be in scouting?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1, I advocate for atheists' rights. The BSA still dishonestly charters units to government agencies and still tries to get taxpayers, including atheists, to subsidise their organization. I'm working to stop that.

[evmori]

"Piss Christ" was not paid for with public money.

 

The artist who created it received $15,000 from the publicly funded National Endowment for the Arts for this work. I am one of the 3% who want my $15,000 returned.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Yes Ed, but the piece wasn't created with government money. It won an award.

[GernBlansten]

Excluding 3% of the population (actually I think its much higher) based on a requirement that has no prominence in the program seems like BSA has their priorities askew. Of that 3%, how many would actually join? For all the problems the DRP causes the BSA, is it really worth it?

 

Drop the DRP. Public funds can now trickle back into scouting. Public schools can charter once again. The US Military can support the Jamboree without challenge. The BSA can get sweet heart deals for office space and use of public lands. Allow the benefits of the BSA to reach all boys.

 

Or retain the DRP and build a wall to exclude those very few who would have no problem with completing every requirement in the program.

 

Can you say hard headed?

[evmori]

Gonzo1, I advocate for atheists' rights. The BSA still dishonestly charters units to government agencies and still tries to get taxpayers, including atheists, to subsidise their organization. I'm working to stop that.

 

Maybe the government agencies dishonestly accepted the BSA charter! There are two sides to every coin!

 

Yes Ed, but the piece wasn't created with government money. It won an award.

 

Then were did the $$$$ come from? The NEA was established by Congress. Sounds governtmenty to me!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Gold Winger]

"The second harm is one that Merlyn may not be concerned with but I am. The second harm is the one that my son suffered when he was a member of an organization that excluded some of his buddies, not to mention some really great potential leaders, on the basis of a belief system."

 

To you I say, "Go and form a club for your son and his buddies and protect them from harm."

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn,

Again, no right has bee infringed upon. Joining a lcub is voluntary, mot mandatory. Go start your own.

 

Are you a member of an atheists rights group? Perhaps your are the CEO or some other officer. If so, how would you feel if I forced my way? Probably none too happy.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1, My replies to you are back from page 4 of this thread where you indicated that you didn't see how anyone's civil rights were ever violated when public schools chartered BSA units. Public schools can't run private clubs that have religious requirements for membership.