The DRP debate club, Round WHAT??

[skeptic]

Merlyn: "chain", (pull it, repeat ad infinitum). Sort of like the silly scout skit of the arcade quick draw game.

[vol_scouter]

Merlyn,

 

So you want all religious references out of the public arena? In 2005 there was a Wisconsin case in which a group of inmates were wanting to have an atheists meeting. Apparently, this was set aside as a time for religious meetings. In the subsequent court proceedings, a Federal judge ruled that atheism is a religion. So if the schools ban all other religious activities, they are tacitly endorsing a religion - that of no belief in God.

 

This country is founded upon the idea of majority rule with minorities being protected from discrimination by the rule of law. That concept is not being taught any longer in our schools. The minority interests' seem to always trump the majority interests even when there is no demonstrable harm as in the case of scouts meeting in schools. The first amendment was not written as a freedom from religion but rather to allow the free exercise of religion and to prevent the government from FORCING you to accept certain beliefs. It was not written to assure that you are never exposed to religion.

 

I am so tired of 'activism' disguised as 'progressive' thought that serves only to disrupt or to be abrasive. As others have said, if you disagree with scouting LEAVE, start your own group, and let us muddle in our ignorance.

[Gold Winger]

[reference to deleted insults]

FScouter (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

vol_scouter writes:

So you want all religious references out of the public arena?

 

No. I do want the government to be neutral on the subject of religion, however.

 

In the subsequent court proceedings, a Federal judge ruled that atheism is a religion.

 

No, he didn't. Kaufman v. McCaughtry is here: http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/ET0SR6GW.pdf

..."The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a "religion" for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions...The Establishment Clause itself says only that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," but the Court understands the reference to religion to include what it often calls "nonreligion.""

 

Corportations are, under some legal circumstances, treated as people, even though they obviously aren't. Atheism is often treated as a religion for legal purposes even though it isn't. Marijuana is legally classed as a narcotic even though it isn't, if I remember correctly.

 

So if the schools ban all other religious activities, they are tacitly endorsing a religion - that of no belief in God.

 

Wrong, unless the school permits activities that state gods don't exist. Teaching that 2+2=4 is not teaching atheism even though gods are not mentioned.

 

The minority interests' seem to always trump the majority interests even when there is no demonstrable harm as in the case of scouts meeting in schools.

 

Scouts can meet in schools on the same terms as any other group. I've been referring to scout units chartered by public schools, which is quite different.

 

[the first amendment] was not written to assure that you are never exposed to religion.

 

Luckily, I've never said anything close to that. I'm exposed to religion every day. There are churches all over, people on TV, people on the net, people in public. Of course, I and other atheists can likewise promote atheism in the same public manner.

 

I am so tired of 'activism' disguised as 'progressive' thought that serves only to disrupt or to be abrasive.

 

Well, I'm tired of organizations like the BSA attempting to use public schools to practice religious discrimination, and I actually did something about it.

 

And like I said, if you don't like what I write, why don't YOU leave?

[Gold Winger]

Context is everything

OGE (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn,

So, it's not about becoming a scout leader (by creating your own scout type organization) it's more about being an agitator to those of us who have what we have (BSA) which is something you cna't have (membership in our private organization). Hmmm, sums it up a little better. .......... Merlyn is an agitator.

 

I just heard that court ruling referenced on TV last night. The the SCOTUS once ruled that atheism is a religion and in a separate ruling that the United States is a "Christian Nation".

 

Merlyn, I ain't going anywhere. We're private and that's that.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, this topic just never seems to get tired, eh? And Merlyn remains our one-song wonder.

 

Just to correct a few points here and there...

 

Public schools discriminate all da time. They discriminate on ability. They discriminate by handicap and race, providin' lots more resources to some than others. They discriminate in a "separate but equal" way by gender when it comes to sports.

 

A public body like a school board has discretion, eh? It is free to do what it feels best for its kids and program, includin' chartering a BSA unit. Until there is a controllin' case on point, there is nothin' demonstrably "illegal" about it... and even then, the school board can still charter a BSA unit to contest the point of law if it so chooses. In every case, this is the public body's choice, voiced by elected representatives. BSA has nuthin' to do with it. So it's just silly to blame da BSA. If yeh don't like the choice of a school board, elect a new one.

 

Mirlyn, yeh use math (2+2=4) as an example, but you and I both know that you're playin' fast and loose there, eh? Move the topic to history/social studies, or literature, or even art/music and then yeh can't avoid the fact that excludin' a religious viewpoint fundamentally changes the nature of the topic. Heck, some churches even have doctrinal statements about economics! So truth is, eliminatin' a religious perspective on those aspects of knowledge and culture is real discrimination. It's givin' kids a worldview devoid of God. I think it even hurts atheist kids' education, because it doesn't give 'em a full understanding of the viewpoints out there! Put in reverse (do unto others...). How would yeh feel if your kids were only taught a religious perspective? Well, that's how believin' parents feel when their kids are only taught an irreligious perspective.

 

Again, I think it's fine to have a "wall of separation" - provided da resources controlled by the government don't effectively make that a means for discrimination. About 3% of the population are atheist, eh? So when da government only controls 3% of GDP instead of 40+%, I'll stand right by yeh and demand a wall of separation. Until then, I think you're askin' me to provide a welfare subsidy to your irreligious position, eh?

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

OK, please explain what 'control' means in the context of that statement and how do you arrive at the figure of 40+%?

Also, if you think that atheists are the only people who demand that wall of separation, you are sadly mistaken.

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Beavah - I gots to know...

 

With 3% of the population being Atheists, would only 97% of Christmas be a federal holiday?

 

NC

[Gold Winger]

Only 76% of the day is, from right before 6 AM to midnight. Why 6 AM? Because that's when the kids start waking their parents up.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

So, it's not about becoming a scout leader (by creating your own scout type organization) it's more about being an agitator to those of us who have what we have (BSA) which is something you cna't have (membership in our private organization).

 

No, it's to prevent dishonest organizations like the BSA from infringing on the rights of atheists.

 

Boovah writes:

[a school board] is free to do what it feels best for its kids and program, includin' chartering a BSA unit.

 

No it isn't, Boovah. Public schools can discriminate in many ways, but not on the basis of religion. You can yell and handwave all you want, but even the BSA's lawyers saw that was a losing proposition.

 

excludin' a religious viewpoint fundamentally changes the nature of the topic.

 

That's one reason why public schools can't charter BSA units that exclude people based on their religious viewpoints.

 

So truth is, eliminatin' a religious perspective on those aspects of knowledge and culture is real discrimination. It's givin' kids a worldview devoid of God.

 

Sorry Boovah, there are thousands of competing myths for everything from the origin of the earth and animals and humans, to orbital mechanics, yet none of them qualify to be taught as if they actually happened. The government can't decide to promote some religious myths, even your favorite ones.

 

And Boovah, your ridiculous view that only atheists are served by government neutrality on religion is easily refuted by looking at, say, Saudi Arabia.

 

[Gold Winger]

[insult deleted]

 

FScouter (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[vol_scouter]

Merlyn,

 

First, Beevah made the correct argument that in order to understand much art and culture in the world, you must understand the religious traditions - many different religious traditions not just Christian. To not do so is to provide an inadequate education. Thus, learning about religious traditions are requisite for a sound education.

 

Second, as I said, you are not able to show harm from a school sponsoring a scout unit. You can make up lame excuses but there is no harm. I couldn't play certain school sports because I was not physically competitive. So the 3% atheists (I think that the number is a. speculative and b. possibly overstated) who would be excluded are a small percentage as compared to the percentage of youth who cannot play sports, be on the honor roll, be in a play, etc. The only portion of the Bill of rights that doesn't require showing harm is the religious clause of the first amendment. Where's the ACLU calling foul in the uneven interpretation?

 

Third, I am tired of people involving themselves in organizations that they do not like and making the members upset. You do not win people to your view - rather you breed dislike for your cause.

 

Fourth, before you give some argument saying that you object to tax dollars going to a school that sponsors a scout unit being improper use of your tax dollars I will remind you that many more than 3% of the country was incensed over money being paid for a photograph of a Crucifix in a pail of urine. Also, many of us are tired of tax dollars going to the ACLU so that it can turn around and sue the government costing us more tax dollars. The ACLU makes a lot of money being paid by the government to sue the government. The ACLU does not defend our rights - it only defends some of the rights. The ACLU did not defend Heller or other like cases. It is a private group and can take whatever position it wishes but should do so with its' own money - not mine if the schools can't sponsor a scout unit.

 

Last, I doubt that anyone on this list is going to atheist websites and making posts designed to inflame members of the list. You actions convince me that you and others only want to upset others. The more that you persist here, the more that I believe that atheism has little to do with your motivations.

 

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn,

Do you know the difference between a priveldge and a right?

I'm sure you do, you're probably insulted at the question. Well? You don't have a RIGHT to join the BSA, it is a priveldge, the BSA is a private organization. Not every group is open to everybody or every body. You can't join ulness and until you can meet the joining requirements.

 

How about the other question you're now shying away from? Why don't you just go and start your own group?

 

As an attorney, you must love and highly regard all Supreme Court decisions, right? Well, apparently the high court has previously ruled that the USA is a Christian nation. What do you think about that?

 

Why don't you start you own group?

What do you think about the SCOTUS Christian nation ruling?

 

 

[Gonzo1]

For what its worth, I much prefer discussing the merits of using flint and steel over matches or lighters or nylon tents over canvas, exteranl frame pack over internal, patrol method over troop method, boy led over adult led, etc.

 

So Merlyn, since you want to join us so badly, what style pack do you prefer? Do like Silva compasses or lensatic?

Raincoat or poncho?