The DRP debate club, Round WHAT??

[Gold Winger]

"Just to be clear, or to muddy the waters. whatever, but, homosexuality does not equal pedaphilia any more than heterosexuality determines that a person cannot be a pedaphiliac"

 

Someone who likes 14 or 15 year old young men is not a pedophile. Depending on whether the attraction is exclusive to young men or there is an attraction to young men and men of his own peer group it would be considered either ephebophilia or just normal homosexual attraction.

[GernBlansten]

Gosh Gonzo, I didn't even bring up the gay thing, but I understand getting blurred in the all posts.

 

What I am saying is that since the BSA has so little regard for making religion a requirement beyond the DRP, and the DRP might just be at the crux for the downward spiral in membership and the negative effect with the courts, public opinion and non-religious chartering organizations, that they should revisit it. To me it sounds like a bit of foolish stubbornness to retain it.

 

Oh and one more pet peeve. If the DRP is so central in keeping the BSA purity in check, why only include an excerpt from it on the membership application? Why not include the entire DRP?

[Gonzo1]

Gern,

Without the rule and standards, we would have a good ol' boys camping club. Maybe 4H, Sierra Club or the National Wild Turkey Federation or some other outdoors oriented group can take the atheist and gays and teach 'em about the outdoors. As to why the whole DRP isn't on the form, I can't answer that, I didn't desgn the form. I suppose to make an educated guess, I'd say the reason would be to save paper, why don't you ask national and let us know.

 

(This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

Here's a challenge for you. You and I you know places where the membership conditions are readily available for anyone to see.

 

We do? You can't seem to find bsalegal.org that says someone who does not believe in god can't be a member.

 

So tell us anyplace where the BSA tells ANYONE to keep that information a secret.

 

I never claimed the BSA tells anyone to keep that information a secret.

 

I'll wait here. Hurry back, but do not come empty handed this time.

 

All I have is that straw man you constructed yourself.

[Bob White]

Bob White writes:

The BSA has never made of secret of what those values were.

 

Merlyn Responds

Sure they do, Bob.

 

Bob White writes that there values are well know and publicly Published (The Scout Oath and Law) so how can they be a secret.

I ask Merlyn to find something to prove that the BSA has instructed anyone to keep these values a secret and Merlyn's response is...

 

" I never claimed the BSA tells anyone to keep that information a secret."

 

So merlyn thinks the values are kept a scret but no one told anyone to keep them a secret?

 

 

So I guess the next question Merlyn is if even people not in the BSA know what the values of Scouting are then who is keepeing them secret and fropm whom are ther keeping them, because an awful lot of people seem to be in the know on this so whoever is in charge of the "secret keeping" sure isn't doing to good.

 

So what secret is being kept Merlyn, and if you know them then how are they secrets?

 

In fact is there were secrets being kept I would think that you would have had to say that "The BSA keeps secrets and I don't know what they are?"

 

So what exactly is secret about the Values of the Oath and Law Merlyn?

[packsaddle]

"Good grief!" I hope everyone's mind is playing those words with Charlie Brown's voice.

"Is too a secret! Is not! Is too! Nya, nya, nya!" The boys in this unit don't even do this to this degree!

The solution to this snit is for BSA to go ahead and make it all openly explicit up front and written plainly enough so that anyone will understand that BSA does not welcome them as a member if they are gay or if they are an atheist. Don't bury it on the back page or in some oblique reference. Instead, proudly proclaim these facts openly and loudly at the very beginning so that no potential member can miss them.

Then BSA can find some place online where they can put a copy of all of their policies and rules and regulations (whatever) in that one place - one stop shopping, so-to-speak. BSA can still have their separate documents as they have now. But all these questions will be laid to rest and maybe we can focus on content rather than snit.

[Eamonn]

" If BSA drops the DRP, we lose the support of the LDS church, the Methodist church, and quite possibly the Catholic church."

That might be true and could happen.

To the best of my knowledge, while some churches were not very happy when Scouts UK allowed gay leaders, no church walked away from the Scouting program.

Then on the other side of the coin. I wonder what happens when more churches start accepting Gays? What might happen when a church with maybe a gay person in charge, challenges the BSA?

If gay marriage becomes legal in all 50 states?

Will the BSA see this as a change in values?

 

As for the adults in the BSA who are gay or atheist. My feelings are that it's none of my business. They are making a oath on their honor. If the oath to them is just a collection of words and their honor is of no consequence, that is something that they have to deal with.

While I really don't know how a atheist adult leader manages to deal with explaining the Scout oath to a young lad? I feel that many people in this situation have worked out some way of working around it.Or maybe they just ignore it?

While I'm not gay and I'm not an atheist. I do at times feel like a fraud. Here I am making an oath which includes "To keep myself physically strong" while I continue to smoke.

I have used and continue to use every argument known to man to rationalize my smoking.

While the tide of public opinion might be turning and being gay or being an atheist is maybe more acceptable than it was. Smokers and smoking is becoming less and less acceptable.

Of course, chances are that one day I'll find a way to quit smoking.

Eamonn.

 

[packsaddle]

Hey, that's easy, just put water on it. Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Just a note...the Methodists are very likely not going to revolt if gays are allowed to be members. There are already gay Methodists (and have been for quite a while) and the idea that only SOME of their church members are allowed to join a unit that they sponsor really causes a conflict. I have yet to meet a Methodist who would quit if gays were allowed to join. As for atheists, the Methodists I know couldn't care less.

 

LDS, ahem, is evidently some other universe of existence...but they seem to be calling all the shots in BSA.

[OldGreyEagle]

I have an idea. Let's kick it around, that that will be a challenge.

 

We have the BSA allow gays to be adult members. A Chartering Organization advertises that it has the first gay scoutmaster in the Council. How many youth do they recruit on School Night?

 

I think most families are like Gonzo, there is no way that he would let his son go camping with gay adults. I think most of the country would agree. I don't think there is a market for Gay lead troops, it would be interesting to try.

 

"gay" lead troops would spring up I am sure, but how long would they last? I don't think most would make the first recharter. Then the gay issue disappears, yeah we tried it and the boys and families dont join, and the country moves on.

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

In "Rovering for Success", Baden Powell symbolically talks about the rocks that a boy must be wary during a Voyage of Life canoe trip one rock being irreligion.

 

He detested that adult atheists were forcing their irreligion on boys. He felt that a boy cannot fully develop without a religious belief and that in Scouting by showing boys the wonders of Nature was a step towards believing in God. He did not necessarily mean an established religion and he realized that not all boys would fully develop as scouts.

 

In my reading, I found that for boys, there was no religion precondition to joining or remaining in scouting, just the opposite. BP's new Scouting provided all boys the opportunity to find their own spirituality in a nonsectarian way. The only preconditions I found were age and physical ability.

 

Drop the DRP for young boys. Scouting should go back to helping all boys avoid the rocks. A Charter Organization does not have to allow atheists into their units, as they can place conditions on membership just like before DRP was created in the 70's. Catholic units can continue to require that a boy must be Catholic to join while a Congregational Church would be allowed to accept boys who are atheist, agnostic, or undeclared.

 

Aug, 2005: 7th Circuit Court of Appeals court ruled Atheism is a religion. Wisconsin prison officials must allow a study group for atheists as well.

 

 

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

I thought this thread was about DRP?

[packsaddle]

RememberSchiff, the DRP issue relates to atheists directly because of the denial of membership to them on the basis of religion. Indeed, this may be the reason for the very existence of the DRP. The DRP also relates indirectly to the denial of membership to gays because for many of us, there seems to be a deeply religious component to our prejudices (or worse) toward gays. Therefore, it is difficult to discuss the DRP without opening discussion to the subsidiary issues resulting from it, including membership poliicies regarding atheists and gays.

 

OGE, I note that from first-hand observation, your suspicion regarding gay leaders is not supported. If you were to suggest, however, that homophobia is stronger elsewhere (PA and perhaps UT, maybe ID or TX and other areas of the Deep South), I could accept that possibility.

[scoutldr]

I think it's more about hypocrisy. There are those among us who steadfastly denounce gays and atheists as exemplifying the worst role models, while calling others names (the yiddish word for the male member), desecrate their bodies (smokers and obese), commit adultery, eat shrimp and pork, you name it. I call them "cafeteria scouters"...ignore the parts of the Scout Law and Oath that don't match your particular lifestyle, while loudly condemning others who do the same. After having to care for my MIL who is in terminal COPD and heart disease (and now diabetic, too) from 70 years of smoking, I wouldn't let my kids go camping with a smoker, either. I don't want kids exposed to that kind of role model. Her son and daughter smoke and now her 14 yo grandson smokes. Go figure...Kids do learn by example. No, I'm not perfect, I'm obese. And after 4 months of diverticulitis and surgery, I'm working on it...not to be a better role model, but because it's the right thing to do as I don't want to be a burden to others during however many more years I have left.

[Gold Winger]

"I think most families are like Gonzo, there is no way that he would let his son go camping with gay adults. I think most of the country would agree. I don't think there is a market for Gay lead troops, it would be interesting to try."

 

Why? We let boys go camping with just women as leaders. Doesn't it bother parents that they're sending their fine young men off into the woods with middle aged women and we all KNOW what they say about middle aged women.

 

As much as I disapprove of the homosexual lifestyle, I don't think that the world would come to an end if homosexual leaders were allowed. Which homosexuals would be applying for membership? The guys with no attachments that cruise the strip at night looking for "love" or the fellows who have kids and came out of the closet?

 

In the end, it would always be up to the CO. Sorry, you're a drunkard, we don't want you. Sorry, you're a suspected drug dealer, we don't want you. Or, sorry, you're a homosexual try Troop 1234, they're more liberal.

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Pack, are you saying that there are plenty of people who would let their sons camp with Gay adult leaders? If so, then fine, the BSA would allow that mirroring the make-up of society

 

Gold Winger so you would be ok with gay leaders as well, as selcted by the CO,

 

Kewl