The DRP debate club, Round WHAT??

[vol_scouter]

FScouter,

 

From Wikipedia (not always the best source but a convenient one), DoD ~20%, SS~21%, Medicare ~21%, other mandatory ~11%. Defense is a constitutional DUTY of the government so that spending is a requirement for the government. Showing my age, I remember in the 60's when the evening news reported that for the first time the defense department was less than 50% of the total budget. The government spends money on education even though that is an area left to the states. I am a lover and supporter of the arts but I am not sure how much that the federal government should spend. Medical care and retirement is not a right. So in my mind, the spending on military may be too low proportionately as to the actual duties of the federal government. I agree that the world would be better off with less military and more arts. I do not agree that the government should reward art that is offensive to many.

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn, I meant to type "problem".

No, I don't have a problem with AA discriminating against me. I probably couldn't join the JCC either, I'm not Jewish.

 

I think the BSA only saw a problem after being sued and threatened with more law suits.

 

I've heard that the YMCA holds or sponsors after school programs right there in the school.

 

Public schools no longer charter BSA units, we both agree on that and this should now be resolved, right?

 

Fscouter, I forgot to add the Spanish American War, American Indian War, other actions / operations, Persian Gulf War, and of course the "Cold War". So, Fscouter, if you can read these posts, thank a teacher, if you can read them in English, thank a veteran. Now I'll stay on topic, sorry.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Interesting comparison Gonzo. BSA vs YMCA. Which one has a religion in its name, which one doesn't have a DRP to join? Trick question. The Young Mens Christian Association does not require a faith to join. Ain't that bizzare?

[evmori]

Other youth organizations (4-H, Boys & Girls) without the DRP disadvantage are growing.

 

The BSA numbers are up from the same time a year ago. Maybe not growing as fast but still growing.

[vol_scouter]

Those other organizations are not about building character, leadership, etc. 4-H is growing partly because it is looking for chidren outside of farm communities. I wonder if the founders of the YMCA and the YWCA would approve of the lack of Christian teaching?

 

The BSA should have standards and try to stick by them. We may disagree what those should be but nonetheless the standards ought to be there.

 

Religious denominations that grow are those that have strict standards of belief. The denominations that allow for a broad set of beliefs tend to be relatively flat in growth or losing members.

[acco40]

Religious denominations that grow are those that have strict standards of belief. The denominations that allow for a broad set of beliefs tend to be relatively flat in growth or losing members.

 

Shakers have a very strict set of standards (including celibacy) but for obvious reasons their numbers have dwindled to almost nothing. Then again, repeating the lyrics of one of my favorite muscians - If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.

 

So, I don't know if membership would grow or decline if the DRP would drop. But from my persective, I'm not a professional Scouter, membership numbers are only a secondary concern to me.

 

What would really change if we still expected the same actions out of our Scouts and Scouters - Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave and Clean - but did not mandate what beliefs they should have? Could an organization like that help boys with character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness? If so, should it open its doors a little wider for the youth and adults who want to achieve those goals?

[vol_scouter]

acco40

 

While I do not entirely disagree that some consideration to atheists might make some sense, I believe that in many sections of the country that making that change would lead to a mass exodus of CO's. Scouting is not about how many but what is taught but there must be enought places to teach it.

[Trevorum]

I can see nothing gained by excluding atheists.

 

If Buddhists can be good Scouts without belief in god(s), why exclude others who do not believe in god(s)? It just makes no sense.

[Gold Winger]

Deleted by Hops_Scout

 

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[GernBlansten]

Response to insult deleted by Hops_Scout (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[acco40]

Okay boys, my moderator finger is getting itchy.

 

Sorry acco, mine itched a little too much.. Hops (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[vol_scouter]

After thinking about acco40's query further, I will provide my feeling about essentially getting rid of the 12th point of the Scout Law. I my opinion, all of the other laws hinge upon the 12th. All moral and ethical systems on earth have their roots in religious teaching (I am referring to all major religions). Acting civilly to one another is not innate (unlike the secular humanists wish to believe). We are all animals and thus we wish to procreate with the fittest and we wish to survive. Working together, getting along, etc have little to do with those urges. Criminal behavior (that will often refer to as base) is more close to our innate behavior. Thus, the key to the other laws is a sense of reverence. I do not think that the program would be the same without the 12th point. Excluding atheists may have cost us some CO's and members but IMHO dropping the 12th point of the law would take much out of the program itself.

 

I am not writing this to be confrontational - typewritten words lack important inflections. This is just the way that I see the world. I do not believe that atheists are bad because of their beliefs or that they cannot behave in an ethical and moral manner. I do believe that if mankind turns entirely to atheism that it will descend into depravity.

 

These are my opinions and are based upon my personal observations. I suspect that some (many?) may not feel the same way. I do not intend to argue about opinions where there are no facts.

[ghermanno]

OK,

 

But the Scout Law is NOT the same as BP's. My reference is: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/scout_law/chart.htm

 

and the strange looks I got from saying "12" point to the Law in South America when I was visiting them. I was naive enough to think we used the same Scout Law as BP and the rest of Scouting. I was wrong and shown that I was.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well vol_scouter, in my opinion organizations that denigrate atheists like the BSA lead directly to attitudes such as yours, just as organizations that exclude Jews end up having lots of members who have unfavorable views of Jews and Judaism.

[vol_scouter]

Merlyn,

 

If you read my post carefully, I did not denigrate atheists. Also, my beliefs have nothing to do with the BSA values. Your dislike of religion makes it difficult to accept other viewpoints. I did not say that atheists are depraved, immoral, or in any way bad. Though I have personal religious beliefs, I cannot prove that you are not correct in your beliefs and I admit that a supreme being may not exist. I do believe that society's value system comes from religions (even if from false beliefs) and not from basic human nature. We may differ on that point. If I am correct, then a world with religions to provide moral authority will degenerate into depravity. If human nature is basically good then I am wrong.

 

For a well educated attorney, I find it sad that you feel that you must resort to implying that I am anti-semitic because I do not share your belief system. I have not said or implied such things towards you. I as said, I have not joined several clubs where I would like to play golf because they do not allow some to be members: i.e. blacks and Jews. Just because you cannot refute my argument because for either of us it is opinion only, please keep from insinuating untrue things. To imply that because private organizations have membership requirements they foment hate and discrimination is simply not true. Private organizations can be even evil but they can also be good. So membership requirements do not determine anything but who can join.