The DRP debate club, Round WHAT??

[John-in-KC]

Scoutldrs post came close to actually kicking in the full-fledged, multi-page, no-holds-barred debate. I'll honor Michaels' original request and take the debate away from his question.

 

As for me, here's what I see: If BSA drops the DRP, we lose the support of the LDS church, the Methodist church, and quite possibly the Catholic church. That's thousands of units without a home, if indeed we get to keep the kids. Keeping the kids is not a sure thing if LDS drops us as their youth program.

 

I know both the American Legion and the VFW have instructions to their Posts to pick up charters of Scout units dropped by churches and schools, but I'm not sure they can pick up enough charters to cover this shortfall.

 

Over and above all this, without calling Scouting a church (it isn't), I like the clarity of the position for adults. As I've stated elsewhere, I want the youth to have room to grow and make decisions; if he eventually decides and can carry the argument for atheism, that's the time we have to deal with him.

 

Fasten your seatbelts...

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Dropping the DRP and adopting a local option shouldn't drive LDS and other religious charters away. They can retain their exclusion of athiests. But it seems to me their threat is meant to define how other unit's membership outside their spectrum are made up. So is it really just about the LDS (and others) want to have their way for themselves, or are they exercising their power on all units in the BSA?

[Bob White]

People who stand for nothing will fall for anything.

 

The BSA is a private organization based on a specific set of standards that are reflected in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. There are no substitutions on this menu. You cannot have an organization that has a 'pick and choose' set of values.

 

The BSA has never made of secret of what those values were. People who do not agree with those values need to seek other organizations where they can associate with like minded folks.

 

The vast majority of members of the BSA are here because they share the same values. The BSA makes no demands on non-members to accept or even agree with their values, but they have every right to expect the members to agree and accept them.

 

When you insult the BSA over their belief in reverence and duty to God, you insult every member in the BSA who holds those same values. Speaking as one of them, I have no interest in playing with people who would insult me and the values I hold dear.

 

Do the values of the BSA cost us members? Sure, a few, but they are not people that the traditional programs exist for or seeks as members.

 

The fact that some people (however many) do not believe in God, does legally or morally obligate the BSA to accept them as members.

 

Do not expect the executive board which is made of the represenatives of the chartering organization, most of whom are faith based organizations, to budge on the matter of atheism. It is not gonna happen.

 

[Gonzo1]

Gern, I couldn't disagree more. If the DRP is dropped, I think many churches would drop their charters, especially LDS. You claim they could exclude atheists, but I would wager that the ACLU would be suing left and right.

 

When we join scouting, we agree to live by the Scout Oath and Scout Law and agree to the precepts of the DRP. If the BSA says that a member cannot grow into the best possible citizen without first doing his obligation to God, why would someone want to join a group (BSA) with a value system vastly different than his own?

 

Oh, I see it now, it's the knot tying and camping.

 

If you (or a potential member) can't abide by the membership requirements, don't join. Either find another group like Spiral Scouts or hey, go start your own. It's a free country, you don't have to join the BSA. You could go camping with Green Peace, REI hosts camping and backpacking trip, maybe the YMCA, but then again there's the "C" part in YMCA.

 

You know, I don't go beating anyone over the head about my religion, I hope that folks go to some knd of church or other place of worship sometime.

 

IMO, there is no finer organization for young men and boys than the Boy Scouts of America. I'm sure there are other fine organizations out there and if you don't like the BSA, go elsewhere.

 

[RememberSchiff]

There has been local option before to include boys previously excluded.

 

"(James) West also dealt with those who protested against the inclusion of African Americans. West held that they should be included, but that local communities should follow the same policies that they followed in the school systems. Thus, much of the American south as well as many major northern communities had segregated programs with "colored troops" until the late 1940s. Since the BSA had early and enduring ties with the YMCA, a firmly Protestant organization, the Catholic church forbade their boys to join. West successfully argued that Scouting was non-sectarian and the Catholics accepted the BSA program in 1913."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_E._West_%28Scouting%29

 

 

 

[acco40]

Yes the BSA is a private organization and one in which I am a member. That gives them the right to set their own membership rules.

 

Bobwhite - were you insulted when the BSA change the minimum age requirement to join? Where you insulted when they allowed females to become Cubmasters, Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters? Do you find any change (i.e. going away from traditional) insulting?

 

I see possible good and bad ramifications if the BSA did away with the DRP. However, I don't find debate of that issue insulting.

[GernBlansten]

I can understand BWs stance if the BSA included religion as a core element to their program. But they do not. No religious requirements (save cubs) beyond following the DRP at application time.

If the BSA wants to be a religious organization, then it should behave as one. Require scouts to earn their religious emblem. Create a merit badge on religion. Bring religion front and center into the program, not tip toe around it. The LDS have basically done that with their own implimentation of the program.

 

Check out the thread on scout's own and realize that even when we try to include a religious element, we have to water it down to such a degree that it becomes meaningless to even the most devout followers.

 

[John-in-KC]

Gern,

 

First, Boy Scouting is the only BSA program which does not have a faith based requirement. Venturing has a Religious Life Bronze and the Trust Award. Granted, the Venturer can choose his or her own recognition path, and need not earn these awards.

 

I'd be ok if the National Advancement Committee made, as a condition of earning Star Scout: "Earn the age appropriate religious award for your denomination."

 

[GernBlansten]

John,

That's my point.

The BSA is all about requirements. We haggle over how a boy achieves each one, how to teach and test them. We measure the scouts progress on how many requirements they have met. We are adamant not to add to requirements. We are in all effects a "by the book" organization.

 

A scout can skate all they way through boy scouts and venturing and never have to do anything related to religion, yet BSA refers to itself as a religious organization. Our insistence on excluding a scout when they may never be challenged to demonstrate their faith just seems ridiculous considering the harm we have inflicted ourselves with the policy.

[OldGreyEagle]

Ah, but John, would that not require the BSA to assure all denominations had a religious medal to be earned? What of the Wiccans who were shut down in their attempt to establish a religious recognition? Unitarian scouts?

[FScouter]

Every Boy Scout rank includes a written requirement to "demonstrate the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your daily life. Unless the Scoutmaster has excised the 12th point of the Scout Law and chooses to ignore the religious aspect of Scouting, there is no way a boy can skate through Scouting without it. The solution then is not to add requirements for religion, but to insist the program leaders enforce the requirements already there.

[Gonzo1]

Gern,

I disagree, I think a scout is "tested" along the way, or at least has the opportunity to be tested at each SMC and BOR. If not tested then, how about "Johnny, would you lead us in grace?" and if he says "No, I don't believe in God" then he fails the test, same with the Pledge, Oath and Law.

 

Scouts and adults agree to live by the Oath and Law and the precepts of DRP.

 

How do you "old timer" civic group members feel about adding women to your groups like Rotary or Jaycees? My guess is, about the same as we feel about atheists in BSA.

 

[acco40]

I tend to agree with FScouter. However, for the vast majority of my Tenderfoot and for nearly all of the Scout badge Scoutmaster reviews I give the Scout does not know the meaning of a few words in the Law. The ones they have the most difficulty with are thrifty and reverent. They just plane don't know what they mean. I try to explain each one to them. I state that the root word for reverent is "revere." That the BSA asks them to revere something/someone and that the word is similar to worship (that they understand). The first response by many is "but my parents don't go to church" - so I reply to them that as a Scoutmaster, my expectations are that they follow their parents desires wrt to religion. I don't ask what those desires may be. For the older Scouts, some tend to do natural teenage things like explore religious teachings that are different than what they were brought up with. For that aspect, I don't judge the wisdom of that choice but do discuss with the Scout how he may show reverence.

 

Now, I tend to believe one may be "moral & ethical" and still not believe in in a higher power. I'm aware not all agree. So, I look more at actions of the Scout and less on beliefs. I had one Scout, a very good Scout in my view, tell me that he didn't believe in God. I didn't make a big deal out of it, I think he was just following in his parents footsteps but was a very ehtical, moral, generous, kind, ... person just like his parents. Was he reverent? Well, he revered many of his teachers, music and other things.

[BadenP]

It would be interesting to see a poll done among atheist and agnostic families as to whether or not dropping the DRP would entice them to allow their kids to join scouting. My personal feeling is that I do not see a mighty surge of these youth coming into scouting to make it worthwhile enough to drop the DRP. On the other hand I do think the LDS is given special treatment and exercises more control over National because scouting is their youth program which I think is an insult to other denominations. LDS scouting has a very different focus and goal then traditional scouting which National allows and I think that is wrong. So this debate can never truly come to a conclusion that would please all.

[Gonzo1]

BadenP,

I don't think we need a poll, first of all, it would be unscientific, secondly, whatever the outcome, peoplw would say "see, the poll said _____, so we must do _____"

 

What special treatment does the LDS troops get? I'm not aware of any.