Atheists in the BSA

[evmori]

The National Executive Board also consists of people for non-religious organizations.

 

Hey we Presbyterians have some good coffee, too!

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

I will repeat what I said in case you misunderstood.

 

Nowhere does the BSA say it will remove from membership a scout who says he does not believe in God.

 

What's this then?

Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member?

 

A. No.

 

So, is bsalegal.org not the BSA? Or do you say you know BSA policy better than BSA's official legal website, explicitly created to communicate the BSA's position to the public?

 

I do not disagree that an athiest cannot join.

 

Assuming you mean "atheist," now you're not even being consistent.

 

[Bob White]

I know the policies very well merlyn, better thab you no doubt. And I have discussed then with several national directors in the BSA over the years including just a few months ago with the director of the Division responsible for this area of concern.

 

I sincerely doubt Merlyn that you can honestly make that same claim.

 

I can tell you that the BSA has the authority and the right to remove the membership of anyone they choose. That does not mean they have to do it right away.

They can excercise that right when they feel they must. There is nowhere that says they do it immediatley is there Merlyn?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

I know the policies very well merlyn, better thab you no doubt. And I have discussed then with several national directors in the BSA over the years including just a few months ago with the director of the Division responsible for this area of concern.

 

I sincerely doubt Merlyn that you can honestly make that same claim.

 

I can tell you that the BSA has the authority and the right to remove the membership of anyone they choose. That does not mean they have to do it right away.

They can excercise that right when they feel they must. There is nowhere that says they do it immediatley is there Merlyn?

 

Bob, time was not a factor in your earlier remark. It's irrelevant for you to try and bring it up now.

 

Here's your original statement:

"Nowhere does the BSA say it will remove from membership a scout who says he does not believe in God. "

 

Here's an official BSA website on belief in god and membership:

Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member?

 

A. No.

 

That contradicts your original statement.

 

Notice that:

1) the fact that the BSA can remove anyone's membership for arbitrary reasons is completely irrelevant

2) the fact that the BSA can take an arbitrary amount of time to remove someone's membership is completely irrelevant

3) the fact that the BSA can completely ignore their own requirements on a whim is also irrelevant

 

The only relevant factors are what BSA officials have said regarding whether belief in god is a membership requirement. They have; it is.

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn write: "The only relevant factors are what BSA officials have said regarding whether belief in god is a membership requirement. They have; it is."

 

Put a fork in it, you're done. Stop trying to change the BSA requirements for membership, belief in God IS A REQUIREMENT FOR MEMBERSHIP.

 

Bye bye.

 

[acco40]

Cool it guys.

 

When my oldest joined Cub Socuts as a second grader, he, like most children his age, didn't really question his religious upbringing. My wife, a Catholic, had him take the requisite Catholic religious education. As a non-Catholic, maybe I wasn't as supportive as my wife but I felt it was a good idea to be educated in religion to some extent. We don't make secular education a child's choice now do we?

 

All was well and good and he earned his Light of Christ as a Cub Scout. Then tragedy struck. His religious education teacher, a volunteer parent just like most Scout leaders, died of a ruptured aorta. She was only in her mid 30's. Well my son was understandably confused, angry and the other typical signs of grief. How could a loving God strike down his religious education teacher who was a mother of five including a boy in his class? Enough with this Jesus loves me, if I'm good I'll be rewarded crap he thought (I'm paraphrasing the thinking of an immature 9 year old boy.). He refused to go to church for a few weeks. My wife didn't understand, I did. Don't push him was my advice. Should I have yanked him out of Scouting? What, pray tell would that have accomplished? Was he living a lie? Hypocritical? Come on people, practice some of that Christian "turn the other cheek" mentality.

 

So, yes one may be an athiest in Scouts. Heck, for the Scouts, who the heck knows what they are! How many adults have the same beliefs now that they did in their teens, 20s or even 30s? I don't.

[skeptic]

For some posters, everything is either black or white. No nuance or room for wiggle allowed. And, if it was stated once, even if since has been motified or clarified in some manner, it matters not. The statement was made; so it is fact and cannot be questioned except in a negative way. No sense in arguing with a wall.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1, can you even follow a conversation? Your argument is with Bob White, who (for some bizarre reason) doesn't seem to know that the BSA says that belief in god is a requirement.

 

But, by the way, I have every right to try and change the BSA's membership requirements. Freedom of speech and all that.

[Gonzo1]

I hope you're attempts are a waste of time and lots of money.

It's private. You can't join. Unless of course, wait a minute, you can join. All you have to do is meet the requirements for membership. You already know what they are, then you can join. It will also cost about $15 or something.

 

My arguemt isn't with Bob White, it's with you, sometimes I disagree with others, but mainly I disagree with you.

 

Skeptic,

you can't be kinda gay or kinda atheist. You either are, or are not. No real gray area here.(This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

[Gonzo1]

Merlyn, after I had my morning cup of coffee, I realized that I didn't care much for the tone of your last post in this thread and I decided to respond again.

 

Can YOU even follow a conversation? Seriously, we have told you that atheists are not allowed in the BSA. The courts have upheld our position. We are a private organization and atheists are not allowed to join.

 

Want to go camping and wear a uniform, start your own group.

[MichaelOA]

Hey now you got the 15 year old in here, Gonzo, I'm with Merlyn on this one thing, he said you have to have a faith in order to have membership in the BSA. Then you make the post:

 

"Merlyn writes: "The only relevant factors are what BSA officials have said regarding whether belief in god is a membership requirement. They have; it is."

 

'Gonzo writes: Put a fork in it, you're done. Stop trying to change the BSA requirements for membership, belief in God IS A REQUIREMENT FOR MEMBERSHIP.'

 

Bye bye."

 

So what is worse, is you posted a quote from him stating what you were agreeing with and telling him to put a fork in it, and that he is trying to change the BSA Requirements, so I guess what really bugs me is, because he is someone you normally don't agree with or you dislike and I can only assume that you stand by Bob more often, you decide to just ignore the post and copy it and side with someone you didn't agree with and argue with someone you did.

 

How does that make any sense? Not really being very courteous, kind, and especially not cheerful.

 

-Michael(This message has been edited by MichaelOA)

[acco40]

Skeptic,

you can't be kinda gay or kinda atheist. You either are, or are not. No real gray area here.

 

Au contraire. Most leading psychologists and psychiatrists believe that we are all on a continuum of sort wrt to sexuality. Nobody is 100% straight or 100% gay. I know most don't like to think of it in that way but who am I to argue with the experts.

 

I know myself and even individuals such as Mother Theresa have struggled with their faith. The world is full of gray and for some, even grey. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Pack212Scouter]

Michael,

 

I hope your 4th turned out better than you expected. Ours here was rainy and dreary!

 

You have hit on one of the core precepts of Scouting, as such, individuals are bound to get passionate. We do still need to be civil to one another though!

 

On the subject of atheists, declaired atheists may not be members of the BSA for the reasons that have been stated. Merlyn, as usual, has chosen to attempt to get his beliefs presented by stirring the water into a muddy mess that is difficult to see through. Merlyn has attempted to merge the concept of "declared atheist" with the concept of "doubt about faith." He would like us to believe and state that if one questions the concept of God, then one is an atheist. Well, that is not true, which is why Scouts can and often do express questions about their faith and God (even adults do sometimes at times of great difficulty), yet remain Scouts. It is part of growing into a mature adult. An atheist is not someone that has questions; an atheist has decided that they believe that there is no such thing as "God." As such, this belief is not in accordance with the Scout Law, or BSA policy, and this person cannot be involved in Scouting for the reasons that the Beaver so eloquently stated.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1 writes:

Can YOU even follow a conversation? Seriously, we have told you that atheists are not allowed in the BSA. The courts have upheld our position. We are a private organization and atheists are not allowed to join.

 

Yes, I KNOW all this; I haven't said anything to contradict that. Bob White, however, said "Nowhere does the BSA say it will remove from membership a scout who says he does not believe in God. " which doesn't match up with what the BSA says.

[Pack212Scouter]

Now onto you Merlyn....I'll try to be civil though

 

"But, by the way, I have every right to try and change the BSA's membership requirements. Freedom of speech and all that."

 

Nice try, but since BSA is a private organization and you are not a member...well connect the dots. You can also try to keep the sun from rising, but you'll have about the same effect

 

As for freedom of speech...You are free to speak all you like in a public forum (which this is not, but we like to hear you anyway!). You can speak until you run out of air. Freedom of speech does not imply requirement to listen.(This message has been edited by pack212scouter)