Atheists in the BSA

[OldGreyEagle]

Interesting sidepoint here. MichaelOA asked for the thread to be closed at 10:17pm, Beavah made his post at 10:55pm and MicharlOA speficically thanked Beavah for his post. So, had the thread been closed when requested, Beavah's post could never have been made.

 

Comments should be PMed to me, I will let the conversation continue, it's interesting and civil

[Beavah]

Yah, that Beavah, he sure types slow! Especially when Mrs. Beavah keeps interruptin' him with some new chore as needs to be done that minute!

 

B

 

[Gold Winger]

" Also at this time, the LDS or the Mormon Church under Joseph Smith began to study Scouting program for their youth membership."

 

Are you sure about that? Jos. Smith Jr. died in the 19th century and his son, Jos. Smith III, was pretty much retired from the church long before BSA was founded.

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

Yeah, I could easily be wrong as this my recollection of a talk long ago. I'm hoping some forum members come forward, better informed than I.

 

Here's some references

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith

Says Joseph F. Smith was Church President until he died of pneumonia in 1918. Scouting became the the official youth program of his Church in 1913.

 

http://www.mormonwiki.com/Stability_and_Growth

"...He (President Joseph F. Smith) was a huge advocate for education and in 1912, the seminary program began in Salt Lake City. The program provided weekday religious education for Mormon teenagers and still continues today. He also oversaw the Church's adoption of the Boy Scout program..."

 

In Scouting, we often lose the reason why changes were made (whether they appear good or bad) - Scout Law, "Be Square", neckerchiefs, red berets,...

(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

[Gold Winger]

Okay. I stand corrected.

[Gonzo1]

On the membership application is an excerpt of the Declaration of Religious Principles (DRP) which says in part: The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God......

 

Members who read and sign the application agree to live by the precepts of the DRP or they can't become members.

 

 

[Bob White]

Keep in mind that nowhere does the BSA say it will remove the membership of a youth that says he does not believe in God.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Wrong; on the official BSA legal website, it says:

 

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-195.asp

 

Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member?

 

A. No. The Scout Oath represents the basic values of Scouting, and it addresses the issue of duty to God before duty to country, others, and self.

 

 

I have also talked with a number of BSA officials about specific programs (such as the Venture Crew that Cambridge-Isanti High School used to charter) and asked directly if atheists could join these programs, and have been told "no."

 

Bob, have you ever asked a BSA official whether a non-LFL was open to atheists and gotten a "yes"? I never have.

[Bob White]

I will repeat what I said in case you misunderstood.

 

Nowhere does the BSA say it will remove from membership a scout who says he does not believe in God.

 

I do not disagree that an athiest cannot join.

 

Nor do I disagree that a scout who decides he is an athiest cannot advance. And it is true that the BSA has the authority to remove an athiest from membership. But there is nothing in the BSA that says a scout who says he does not believe in God will be removed from membership. It is an option that the the BSA can excercise at will.

 

But the BSA leaves open the oppportunity for the program to have an effect on the scout. Removal is neither the preferred action or a guaranteed action.

 

 

[evmori]

It might not be stated anywhere that atheist Scouts or leaders can be removed but then again it's not stated anywhere that any leader or Scout can be removed for anything. The fact remains that an atheist Scout or leader can and has been removed, much to Meryln's disappointment, just like a leader or Scout who is detrimental to the program has been removed.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[scoutldr]

Then there's the elephant in the living room...the fact that if the BSA changed it's policy, the financial fallout from the major denominations withdrawing their support (the LDS and Methodists being the largest), would be a fatal blow.

[Bob White]

The "BSA" is a corporation that by its bylaws is controlled by its national board which is made up of representatives of some of the larget organizations that sponsor scouting units in the US. Those organizations include The Catholic Church, The LDS church, the Methodist Church, and other major religions in the US. Do you really believe that they will veer away from their traditional values based on the desires a a tiny number of atheists and agnostics in the country?

 

Not gonna happen. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[scoutldr]

I am Lutheran. We don't have a sign on the front door of the church that says "Atheists and Homos Keep Out!" All sinners are welcome, in the hopes that they will find something of value inside.

[acco40]

Lutherans not having something tacked on to the door?

 

Lutherans always have something good inside - coffee!

 

[Bob White]

As I recall the Lutheran religion began with something tacked on the door did it not?

 

I am glad that anyone can vist your church, just as anyone can visit scouting. But if somebody were to join your church would you not expect them to embrace the Lutheran values?

 

So does the BSA.

 

Does the Lutheran church expect its church leaders to accept and follow the values of the lutheran faith.

 

So does the BSA.

 

All are welcome top visit, believers can join and lead.

 

Your church is not unlike the BSA in its expectations.

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)