Atheists in the BSA

[MichaelOA]

Well, I never did exactly understand the reason, for not allowing Atheists to be in the Boy Scouts. I am not looking for arguments, or meaningless posts like 'look at the 12th point of the scout law' or something like that, I want the actual reasons behind not allowing atheists in the boy scouts. I was reading into some boy scout stuff, and I found websites that all have similar topics as this 'The 19-year-old Eagle Scout, the subject of national attention after being booted out of the organization last month for being an atheist.' Or about a scoutmaster being kicked out or something. I don't get how being an atheist can change what you gain from being a boy scout, and if it is about the kids then how come deny atheists that right? I was hoping for some ACTUAL information, maybe some history of how this got started, and so forth.

[Bob White]

I am glad you are not looking for a debate and only want to know the BSA's position. So I hope that being true to your word once you read the BSA's position you will have no more need to continue on this topic (as it is better suited to the Issues and Politics board if in fact what you really want is to create a debate).

 

Here then is the BSA's position on people who have personal values that differ from the values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law.

 

http://www.scouting.org/Media/Positions/diversity.aspx

 

I hope this resolves your curiosity,

 

BW

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[MichaelOA]

Confused... how does that page, say that more specifically this. "Scouts come from all walks of life and are exposed to diversity in Scouting that they may not otherwise experience. The Boy Scouts of America aims to allow youth to live and learn as children and enjoy Scouting without immersing them in the politics of the day." But then they don't allow atheists?

 

Also, is there a better way to talk about this so that we don't start a debate?

[Bob White]

Your focus is on the wrong portion. To put the context of what you quoted in its proper perspective you needed to read and understand the previous portion.

 

"Today, the organization still stands firm that their leaders exemplify the values outlined in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

On June 28, 2000, the United States Supreme Court reaffirmed the Boy Scouts of America's standing as a private organization with the right to set its own membership and leadership standards.

 

The BSA respects the rights of people and groups who hold values that differ from those encompassed in the Scout Oath and Law, and the BSA makes no effort to deny the rights of those whose views differ to hold their attitudes or opinions."

 

The BSA is not a camping club, it is an educational program that teaches a specific value set. There is no point in a person who rejects any of the values to be a member. If a person did not accept the values of the jewish faith it would be silly of them to want to convert to Judaism. If a person did not agree with the values of the Rotary Club, why then would they want to be a Rotarian.

 

Now that you have the BSA's position as you requested I hope that you would not pursue what is a very political issue with some scouters and will surely begin a debate if you continue.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[MichaelOA]

Okay, thank you. I'm done.

[John-in-KC]

Michael,

 

Since you are still a youth member, I will tell you many of the men and women who are Scoutmasters and Committeefolk understand youth are developing and finding their ways. We've seen youth who declared "I'm atheist" simply because it pushes a button with the adults around them, and they want to see how we react. We probe them at Boards of Review, and find they may well be confused about what they want to believe in fact!

 

Other young people are starting to set their way in life. They may decide god does not exist. If they continue in Scouting or Venturing to Eagle/Silver, they will run into a big brick wall.

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On the adult side, it's pretty simple. Notwithstanding our own debates here, when we decided to be leaders in Scouting, we adults committed to actively supporting religious faith in our young charges. Doesn't matter what we believe (there are a few limits to that), it matters that we believe. Belief is a condition of membership at the adult level.

 

Does that make sense to you, young Sir?

 

Have a great Independence Day.

[MichaelOA]

Okay, thanks.

 

(My 4th isn't going to be so great... but I hope you have a good one.)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Keep in mind that what John-in-KC wrote about atheist youth members is against official BSA policy. The BSA doesn't allow atheist youth members either, though some people ignore that requirement (and some also ignore that requirement for adults too).

 

[Lisabob]

And here's where the debate club starts. What Merlyn wrote could be contested. I won't do that because it would be better suited to another thread I think. (Merlyn, note that the original poster explicitly indicates he isn't looking for a debate and merely sought to find the BSA's explanation for its policy. I ask you to spin off, therefore, if you want to start a debate thread.)

 

What I would add, Michael, is that there are also adults within boy scouting who would prefer to see the BSA admit atheists, just as there are adults who believe that the BSA should do no such thing. Then too, understand that many adult members do not know the BSA's exact position on this topic because it isn't spelled out 100% on the adult application either. It is a confusing and complex subject.

 

And with that I'll say no more.

[MichaelOA]

Since, I already gathered all I think I can/will without starting a debate, could a moderator please close this thread?

[Rooster7]

Amen. ;-)

[Beavah]

Yah, hiya Michael! Thanks for your service in the OA, and your thoughtful question. Sorry to hear yeh don't have fun plans for the 4th. Then again, those men that met in Philadelphia back in 1776 weren't havin' a lot of fun either, eh? If yeh aren't havin' fun, at least have courage and do good work.

 

I think BobWhite and John-in-KC gave yeh the right steer, eh? While the BSA program in a lot of ways is centered around outdoor leadership, its focus is on teachin' young men how to make good choices, build character, grow values. I reckon if you think about it, there's a lot of that which happens in small ways in the patrol kitchen (who is cleaning the pot?), on the trail, and around the campfire.

 

The BSA wants the adults who are the examples and leaders in their program to share the goals and values of the BSA. You can't be an example to others unless you also walk the walk. Duty to God is part of what we teach, and yeh can't teach that well if you don't believe it yourself.

 

The same thing applies to youth leaders and members, eh? An SPL, a Patrol Leader, a fellow scout a boy shares a tent with - all these people are examples to their brother scouts. Especially to younger boys! You have to admit, a 13-year-old might not listen to Mr. Jones, but he will pay attention to the 16-year-old SPL who he thinks is cool! To teach Duty to God well, the scouts themselves are a big part of it. They set an example as much as the adults. And yeh can't teach fellow scouts if yeh don't believe it yourself.

 

There's times for full diversity, eh? But there's also times for havin' everybody on the same page. I bet in school you have taken some regular classes and some "advanced" classes, eh? There are some advantages to "advanced" classes, where everyone shares an academic background and a desire to challenge themselves and succeed. Yeh can learn more about the topic in an advanced class (though perhaps less about "people"). Same with BSA and duty to God. We're the advanced class, where everyone is on the same page in believin' in a duty to somethin' greater than ourselves and our nation. That means, like your advanced classes at school, we do keep some people out.

 

Now, it's certainly true that all of us have doubts now and then. Young people that are learnin' and growin' and questioning their beliefs are just fine. In the real world of Scoutin', many of us have sat on BOR's where a lad has declared himself an "atheist". That's part of learnin' and growin'. Like you talkin' with your tent mate about God and doubt late at night. Nobody is goin' to do anything more than help a lad with his quest under those circumstances. Discuss, challenge, ... that's part of teachin' and carin' for each other. One of the lads who once declared himself an "atheist" to me at his 1st Class BOR is now a minister. We passed him for 1st Class, BTW!

 

Where it's tough is when a boy and his family are really convinced atheists and they have an agenda, eh? They want the BSA to change. That's what BobWhite is talkin' about ... it's like joining a Christian church but refusin' to say the creed, or joining a model airplane club but insisting that you want to fly rockets instead of planes. It's tryin' to hijack the group. For those situations, the BSA has to set policy, just as Merlyn describes. So if someone chooses to be difficult, we can point to written documents when things become adversarial in court. That's why the policy has to read as firmly as it does.

 

Hope that helps a bit, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

OK, now I'm confused. Did this thread start in some other forum, and subsequently get moved to Issues and Politics?

 

As if I need to write this, I agree with Lisabob's post.

[MichaelOA]

Yay Beavah is here, thanks for all the advice everyone. I got a PM on it that explained some history, and I got all you guys helping out here, thanks Beavah for the last comment, it made sense when you put it that way. And I can kinda see why the rule is there.

[RememberSchiff]

 

My understanding is a year after the BSA started, our Scout Law diverged from the 8-point British Scout Law to reflect the American values of 1911. Also at this time, the LDS or the Mormon Church under Joseph Smith began to study Scouting program for their youth membership. One of the points added to the Scout Law was "reverent". All scouts are required to follow the Scout Law and since atheists were considered not reverent, they would be ineligible for membership.

 

The Scout Law has remained unchanged and some would say we are not in sync with the American values of today. America is now a more secular and maybe a more tolerant society than it was in 1911.

 

Other scout organizations such as Great Britain and Canada have changed their Scout Law and program to be more inclusive of others. But in the US, only a few charter organizations such as Quaker and Reformed Jewish accept atheists in the scout units.

 

Kudu and Merlyn are likely more informed than I. You asked an interesting historical question that is not easily researched as you found out.

 

(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)